This is part nine of 411 Music’s groundbreaking 10-part series on the impact and influence of Tupac Shakur.
When I originally conceived this idea for a look back at the life and times of Tupac Shakur, I wanted to ensure that anyone who wanted to share their thoughts on him would be heard.
Unfortunately, I didn’t anticipate the volume of responses from fans (and detractors) who felt strongly enough about the man to send in their opinions for the 411 Roundtable discussion. I was genuinely concerned that some of the more insightful feedback would end up on the cutting room floor, so I’ve come up with this solution.
This part of our series will include the thoughts and commentary of members of the 411 writing staff, while Mr. Jon Peters will represent the fans. As you’ll see, Jon is more than qualified and I’ll direct you to his bio below.
As for the fans, themselves, I will include a “fans only” roundtable that will run in early December. While it will be outside the 10-part scope of this series, there were just too many fan responses that I couldn’t ignore. Besides, after reading some of the 411 writer comments below, I’m sure some of you will want a forum for rebuttals!
Just to add a little something extra, I’ll hold off on revealing the fan’s choices for the Top Five Pac Songs Ever until I run the fans-only feature. If you haven’t voted, please send me your top 5 (no later than November 30, 2003) and I’ll add them to the tally. So far, I’ve received over 100 responses and just four points separates #1 from #2.
Here are the members of the 411 Roundtable Panel:
Mathan Erhardt: Personally, my favorite writer on the entire site, Mathan authors the brilliant weekly column More Reasons Why Being Deaf Sucks/Rocks. He has devoted many of his pieces to rap music and his respect for the Hip Hop culture shines through in every word he devotes to the subject.
Evocator Manes: Easily, the most prolific writer in the 411 Music area, Evocator has written and discussed virtually every genre of music in nearly every forum possible. He has completed over 100 album reviews, he is the “evil” mind behind a controversial weekly column called T.I.T.S. and, most recently, he took the lead in bringing together much of the 411 writing community for our exhaustive listing of the 100 Greatest Guitarists.
Ashish Pabari: The co-founder, chief editor and CEO of 411Mania.com, Ashish has contributed several items to the Music section including profiles of recent work by Eminem, 50 Cent and Fabolous.
Jon Peters: The President and CEO of HitEmUp.com, which is the premier source for Tupac news and information. His website is the longest running (since 1995), most consistently maintained and updated area for Tupac fans. He is also the co-founder of streethop.com, which features more general rap information, as well as promotional and distribution opportunities for up-and-coming rappers.
The panel was presented with a series of questions; some basic and general, while others were more involved and complex. Their responses can be found below each question.
Please note, some of the responses have been edited for spelling, syntax or space considerations. If anyone would like the full, complete and unedited transcript of the panel, please email me at the link at the bottom of the page.
If you could choose just one Tupac track to serve as the definitive anthem for who he was and what he represented, what would it be and why?
Mathan: The definitive Tupac song is I Get Around because Pac truly was a hard one to pin down.
EM: How Do U Want It?, without a doubt. It reinforces much about Tupac, in that he was often a sub-par lyricist and occasional weak deliverer of those lyrics, but serves to establish that through sheer force of personality and having a really cool voice, one can build a successful rap (and sometimes film) career (see DMX and to a lesser extent, Richie Rich). This is not to say that Tupac was always droll; he was not. Indeed, he was often capable of moments of brilliance and eloquence, but much like Bob Pollard of Dayton’s Guided By Voices and anyone else who writes incessantly zillions upon zillions of songs, there is a lot of chaff in there with the wheat.
On the other hand, the song is pretty cool, at least the unedited version and the single, the only thing from Tupac or his alias Makaveli that I own, has Hit ‘Em Up, my original choice and one of the craziest and best diss songs ever set to vinyl. Also on the single is a remix of California Love and 2 Of Amerikaz Most Wanted. In fact, the entire single is as good a metaphor for his rap career as anything.
Ashish: This is a tough question and it’s hard to narrow it down to one song since Pac was a complex man. I’d pick Life Goes On, Me Against the World and Me and My Girlfriend. I think these songs, together, represent him and his life well.
Jon: That’s a really difficult question, I really don’t feel that Pac’s life and what he represented can be summed up in one track. I’d say the rare track Tears of a Clown, not for the title of course, but the song speaks for itself. If I had to pick a more mainstream track, I’d choose Changes. Tupac was motivated in large part by pain. Pain not only in his own life, but also pain he saw in others and in the world in general. He lived for change in hope of better days.
Tupac has been dead for over seven years. During that time, the rap game has moved in many directions (from Puffy’s “shiny suit” era up through the current “crunk” craze).
Many of Tupac’s fans speak of his “legacy” or his “influence”, but is there any evidence that, outside of the occasional posthumous release or the entire career of Ja Rule, any attributes of Tupac’s career have carried on nearly a decade after his death?
Mathan: I can’t really think of a Pac legacy. Oh wait! Wasn’t Tupac the first rapper to hook up his boys with a record deal (Thug Life anyone?) So his legacy is (inspiring) rappers who are so full of themselves that they hook up their wack cronies on wax, and try to pass it off as music. And Thug Passion, he’ll be remembered for Thug Passion. Be sure to pick up G-Unit’s new album in stores now.
EM: Occasional? OCCASIONAL? Are you f*cking kidding me? This guy is now like clockwork, releasing a “new” album of wheezes, farts, coughs, sneezes and whatever other sorts of noise his ghoulish and opportunist mother and/or Suge Knight can dredge up. He probably has more shit released post-mortem than at any time when he was an active, living participant in the rap scene. He is more punctual now with album releases than when he lived (if he is, in fact, dead).
To answer this question, one would first have to define which attributes he had that we would care to attribute solely or majorly to him. Let’s take a look….getting shot at? Yep, there are several there, largely headed up by current popular fave 50 Cent. Signing to a label in which the owner constantly hoses the artist? Pick one, but Tupac didn’t exactly invent that. Getting into several films and releasing the occasional album? Ices Cube and T have been and are still doing that, with the latter now moving nearly solely into the lucrative arena of network television. Again, Tupac did not invent this, either. So what else? Constantly smoking dope? There are legions filling this particular non-void. So, which attributes, Cam?
Ashish: Tupac’s influence is all over rap today. Eminem and 50 Cent, probably the two biggest rappers going, both have been very vocal about how Tupac has influenced them. Tupac, even though he has been gone for years, remains as prevalent in society now, as he was when he was alive. He is the iconic rapper that most set out to try and be like.
Jon: Tupac said it best, “my lyrics are blueprints to money making.” I think the majority of artists now have borrowed from Tupac or been influenced by him in some form. Aside from those who borrowed his persona, like Ja Rule, or those who borrowed all his sayings and song titles like Master P, I think people were mostly touched by who Tupac was as a person; his purpose, passion, determination, work-ethic, ability to strive though obstacles, his ability to touch people and his confidence to speak his mind; I think artists have tried to feed off that. As well as all the positive characteristics by which Tupac has influenced people, many artists and people in general, have tried to learn from the negative consequences Tupac endured as a result of his lifestyle. One amazing thing about Tupac was that he could make you think and bob your head with mainstream appeal.
Tupac and The Notorious B.I.G. died within six months of each other. Since their deaths, Tupac’s name and image have continued to remain in the public eye, while the accomplishments of Biggie Smalls have dimmed by comparison.
Is this solely attributable to all of the posthumous material that has been released under Tupac’s name or is there another reason?
Mathan: Nope. I must disagree (about Biggie’s accomplishments “dimming”). I think that more MC’s quote Biggie than Pac. Pac was easier on the eye than Biggie, and perhaps a more complex and compelling individual. He makes a more romantic portrait on nearly every level, but every year (all of the) Hip Hop magazines crown Brooklyn’s Frank White as the greatest to ever pick up a mic. And B.I.G. gets much love in the clubs.
EM: I would submit it is for entirely another reason and that reason being that Tupac had both respect and credibility among his peers, while the name Notorious B.I.G. has become synonymous with “after-thought” or “also-ran”. Once Puffy quit talking about B.I.G., no one talked about B.I.G. Further, Tupac was a decent, if not good, rapper/lyricist in his own right, while B.I.G. was a coattail-rider and a marginal at best rapper/lyricist. Tupac was also much more dynamic and exciting. Charisma played a large role in his continued success. B.I.G. had a flat total of zero of any of those things. Tupac was also less ugly and not at all fat.
The endless albums coming out under Tupac’s name, quite frankly, are not getting exactly ass-loads of media attention, other than that of a derisive nature. Bottom line, Tupac’s material and even Tupac himself, for whatever reason, has endeared himself more to the public and his older works are stronger, more consistent and better than B.I.G.’s and stand the test of time.
Ashish: The amazing thing about Tupac’s stuff is that it is full of emotion, more so than any other rapper. His tracks stand out because of that, where as a lot of BIG’s stuff has faded because BIG was just a good rapper with a good flow, not a man in pain who allowed everyone to watch phases of his life. Everyone grew attached to Tupac because he was like the bad guy who you could see the good in, and you wanted to keep watching until you saw him become who he was capable of being. Tupac never let you see exactly who he was, so even today, everyone keeps searching his new stuff for what they hope to be clues as to what made the guy tick.
Jon: Biggie was a great MC, he had great flow and he could rock a beat. But in my opinion his ability to touch the hearts, minds, and souls of people, dimmed in comparison to Pac. No matter who you are, no matter what you’re going through in life, there’s a song where Pac touches on that feeling, issue or obstacle. Aside from that, there’s just the vast amount of work that Tupac accomplished. All the albums, movies, poetry, scripts, hundreds of tracks, all the concerts and interviews, all the footage, is incredible by any standard. The great thing about the posthumous material is that new fans are being created all the time, and going back through to listen to Tupac’s older material
Some of Tupac’s most ardent fans rationalize, or even glorify his numerous run-ins with the law. Some of his strongest critics refuse to acknowledge the positive nature of some of his music and his sharp intellect.
Should his fans be less forgiving, should his critics be more forgiving or should both sides give a little ground under the belief that, as a human being, Tupac wasn’t as magnificent or as horrible as he’s often made out to be?
Mathan: There is a great middle ground. Tupac had his moments of genius and critics who can’t realize that but still fawn over Robert Downey Jr, or Kurt Cobain need to get their heads checked. But fans need to realize that there is nothing glamorous about brutalizing a woman. Shooting at cops, cool, go ahead. It was the nineties, cops weren’t our friends, but Blacks were on the cop’s hit list (rim shot.) But violating a woman is always bad business.
Wait a minute, Tupac was a mediocre MC and a celebrity criminal. And so is Kobe Bryant. Look deeper. They both feud with larger former friends. Both were accused of rape. Both were hailed as Cali’s favorite sons (at least by their respective communities.) Can we expect to see a Thug Life tattoo across Kobe’s belly in the future? I think so.
EM: Certainly not enough of either to justify a 10 part series.
Fans are not realists or realistic, most times, when it comes to their favorite bands, which become like pets to them, I think. Once someone’s music touches your heart, one can forgive an awful lot of general badness from that person. I would expect no less than the fans to defend and rationalize Tupac ad nauseam and I don’t think they should, as fans, do less.
Critics are also human beings and act just as strongly on hatred, jealousy and bitterness as the fans do on love and possessiveness, maybe even moreso. Sometimes, critics are just trying to draw a reaction or perhaps overestimate their influence and attempt to kill a trend they find either deplorable or distasteful. Ultimately, a critic’s job is to give his opinion, whatever the cause.
Neither the fans nor the critics, of course, are right as much as they think they are.
Ashish: Tupac was by no means perfect. He was very flawed like everyone else. He also found himself very frustrated by his surroundings and at times, he let the world, which he seemed to dislike more and more as he got older, get to him. I think many of Tupac’s problems frustrated his fans because any true fan knew that Pac was extremely smart and not just a “rapper”. He was capable of growing to become a powerful leader in his community.
Jon: As with most conflicting views, the truth is easiest found in the middle. Tupac was not an angel, Tupac did a lot of things he probably shouldn’t have, a lot of things that even Tupac fans would deem as morally wrong. People need to understand that Pac did the best he could with the cards he was given, and try to learn from and understand why he did things. When you do that, you can see the good and the bad things that was Tupac’s life, and incorporate the knowledge you learn in determining how to live your own life. Many of the hardest learned lessons in life come from negative experiences, and I myself have learned from the mistakes of Tupac, and others have and can too. I see him as a philosopher, whose life plays like a Socratic dialect teaching how one ought and ought not to live their lives. Unfortunately, like many great stories, this one ended in tragedy.
It seems that every year there’s a new trend in rap music that creates stars and famous names who are forgotten just as quickly. In this type of environment, is it even possible that Tupac can be to rap what Elvis Presley or Jimi Hendrix are to still-remembered posthumous rock stars?
Mathan: Clearly Pac is the Elvis of Hip Hop, what with the semi annual sightings and what not. I will say that Pac lacked the revolutionary impact that Jimi and Elvis had on rock. If anything Pac is the Buddy Holly of Hip Hop; he tragically died too soon, but left a decent body of work.
EM: Rap does not now and has never lent itself particularly well to enduring stardom. Anyone still remember the Last Poets? Anyone even heard of them? This is not a new trend, Cam. It has always been like this. You could make a case that the two most well-known names in rap are Ice Cube and Ice-T and that is because both have transcended the rap world entirely. As for Hendrix, he was not worshipped as a legend until well into the 80’s, which may also wind up being the case with Tupac, quite possibly. Rap is not considered as valid or as respected of a musical art form as rock, which is also one more reason to doubt that the legacy of Tupac will ever reach the heights of those two other names. In conclusion, no or at least very unlikely.
Ashish: Tupac will always be remembered because what he gave cannot in any way be duplicated. BIG, as good as he was, will be forgotten because he was just a good rapper and good rappers will come and go. Nobody will ever be able to duplicate the drama of Pac’s life, the mystery, the powerful lyrics, and the emotion he put behind them.
Jon: I believe so. An important element of Tupac’s music is the longevity of his message. His words, while socially aware, touched the hearts and minds of many. The issues he addressed, like oppression by the upper class, lack of concern and ability by the government to provide, the pain and the struggles of life, the quest for betterment as a person and a society, these are issues that have been intrinsic since the earliest recorded human existence, and will likely be issues long into the future. People all around the world still relate to Pac, and will continue to do so, because he spoke and still speaks how they feel, and because he increases social consciousness in doing so.
In the liner notes to Tupac’s “Until The End of Time” album, his mother Afeni writes the following in regards to her son’s influence:
“For somewhere across the world, when a young mother doesn’t know where her next meal will come from, the chorus from (Tupac’s) “Baby Don’t Cry” will echo in her head. Somewhere a set of siblings will cling to each other as they survive their mother’s drug addiction and because the electricity was shut off…they will read by candle light the poem, “U R Ripping Us Apart” from Tupac’s book of poetry…and they will know that things get better and they are not alone.”
Is his mother grossly overestimating the influence of Tupac’s work or is it conceivable that a generation of kids and young adults will one day hold him in such a deified regard?
Mathan: His mom is bugging. But moms do that (my mom loves my writing, but it has been said that I have the writing style that only a mother could love.) If kids are reading Pac one day in school I will be unhappy. I think we should also point out that kids nowadays don’t read. Ashanti’s poetry has a better chance of comforting a kid that Pac. But as long as the myth of Pac survives, his songs will have the depth of an ocean. As long as that is what the person who listens wants to hear. I’m sure someone out there believes “Peggy Sue” is about the quest for the meaning of life.
EM: Yes and she is also guilty of the most blatant, shameful, pathetic and disgusting overhyping maneuver maybe ever. When someone is hungry, they are thinking about filling their belly, not the words to some stupid song, unless they are rapping that stupid song in exchange for either money or food. It is insulting to an unparalleled degree to take this belittling and trifling approach and to even attempt to make this allegorical comparison is disgraceful and foul.
The second sentence, somehow, is even worse. Yes, children huddled up because Momma is coked to the gills and either convulsing or passed out on the floor somewhere, will take a refreshing break from their anguish and fear to pass the time reading from Tupac’s book of poetry, by candlelight….presuming Momma hasn’t hawked the candles or something and they can pry the blowtorch from Momma’s fingers, then figure out how to turn it on long enough to light the candle without torching the whole place they are huddled up in. Pandering and silly, Tupac’s mom should be drug out into the street and shot for this.
Ashish: I know I often listen to Tupac’s music to pick me up, motivate me, and help me overcome tough times so I don’t feel this is an overestimation. Many of Pac’s songs come through so real that you feel like he is talking directly to you.
Jon: I’m lucky enough to be in a position where I hear great stories of how Pac has changed people’s lives. People have told me how Tupac influenced them to stay away from crime, drugs, and violence and encouraged them to look outside of the life of crime they seemed to have been destined with. I’ve heard a story of someone seconds away from suicide before hearing a Tupac song on the radio. Stories of single mothers appreciative of the empathy in Keep Ya Head Up; Mothers and sons alike, including myself, influenced by Dear Mama; Rape victims encouraged by Keep Ya Head Up, and on and on.
Often I think people who feel down (think) that nobody understands. Tupac had a brilliant ability not only to empathize with people’s pain, but also to put it into words in a way that let people truly know he understood. He also taught people to stand up for what they believe in, set goals and accomplish them, and not let anybody, or anything, stand in their way. I feel that the only kids and young adults that don’t hold him in such a high regard, are those that haven’t listened to enough of Tupac’s work to get the message.
Since his death, Tupac has been marketed as a man who transcended rap. Yet his published book of poems (“The Rose That Grew From Concrete”) and the accompanying spoken-word CD didn’t do anything close to the sales of his rap albums.
Is this an indication that his fans will only accept Tupac as a rapper or can there be an audience out there somewhere for Tupac the Poet?
Mathan: I’ve got to see it as an indication that Tupac fans can’t appreciate art. These are the same people who went to see Gridlock’d, Bullet, Gang Related and Poetic Justice. Clearly these people have an issue with quality control.
EM: My guess is because the saturation point of Tupac was reached long, long ago (and if not, this 10 part series is REALLY going to do it). Even his fans must ultimately, at some point within themselves, realize that he was just not that important of an artist in the grand scheme of things or even in the rap world. His primary function now is to serve as a money machine for his mother and there are only precious few who feel so served as to feed and support that.
Tupac never transcended rap or anything else. He was just a man who made a living with a microphone and some film parts. He was by no means a poetic genius or even much of a consistent artist, no matter what the hype machine says. There is no to not much interest in him outside of the rap (and to a lesser extent, film) world, so ixnay on the poetry-ay thing.
Ashish: It’s not fair to compare albums to books of poetry and spoken word CDs since the market for them is completely different. No matter who you are in the music world, if you release a poetry book, it won’t sell as much as your album. If Britney Spears or 50 Cent put out a poetry book right now, at the peak of their fame, it wouldn’t sell close to what their albums sell.
Jon: There are always marketing factors that go into sales, but aside from that, I believe the main reason for that is simply the medium used for portraying positive messages. Unfortunately, there is a smaller portion of the population that seeks out intellectual stimulation for the purpose of entertainment, which is what the poetry and spoken-word CD is. Tupac’s music packages intellect with a wide range of emotion in a medium that has mass appeal due to its diversity, and that’s why it sells so much better.
One of Tupac’s most enduring traits was his ability to rap on so many different and diverse topics. On the subject of women, he could pen a track that was positive and uplifting like “Keep Ya Head Up” or “Dear Mama”. Of course, he also released less-respectful material that reveled in the whole “bitches and hoes” approach.
Can someone discern the “real” Tupac from so many conflicting messages?
Mathan: The real Pac was the guy on Dear Mama. Pac was a scared little boy in search of acceptance. When Black Nationalism was all the rage he figured it was in his blood and spit the appropriate rhetoric (and it was all the rage. Hell, I was Mathan X for a solid minute.) When the “thug/gangsta” archetype was in, Pac fit the bill. The coastal wars brought out Westside Pac, who spit venom at his former compadres. Pac always played the role. Whatever role it was. He felt the need to belong. And it was that need for acceptance that probably placed him the wrong place at the wrong time.
EM: You are getting the “real” Tupac, yo. Tupac Shakur was born on June 16, 1971, one day before me. This makes us Geminis. Duality is in our nature, f*ck that, duality IS our nature. There are no conflicts. Believe it or don’t but that is how it is. Everything is not always nicey lovey-dovey and everything is not always “bitches and hos” either, but it is both at some time.
Ashish: Tupac himself probably didn’t know who he really was. This comes through his lyrics. He was often confused and frustrated by the society he saw around him. He was confused by how to act at times. But when someone hears a song like ‘Dear Mama’ and then a song that degrades women, it further interests the listener into trying to figure out who this guy really was.
Jon: When you look at the reality of life, there are people who look to make a difference in the world, and though they aren’t perfect, none of us are, they do the best they can with what they are given at any point in time. When you listen to songs like Keep Ya Head Up, or Dear Mama, you can hear Pac recognize the struggle of women for something better; the struggle to survive to see a better day; the struggle to raise a son in a world that too often shapes anti-social behavior, etc. I think a lot of women, and men, in doing the best they can, do things that have them perceived in a negative way. Listen to Wonda Why They Call U Bitch, the title character is a woman that many people can relate to knowing; some women act like bitches and hoes. I don’t see the song as disrespectful, I see it as saying listen, you need to wake up to reality. I feel that when he says bitches or hoes, he’s not stereotyping, and if a woman isn’t a bitch, then it’s not an all-encompassing word that labels them too. Most people can probably agree that some women are bitches, just like some guys are pricks.
The real Tupac is the conflicting messages. What people can do is listen to the messages, and say, this and this is what pertains to me, and this and this is what I can do to be a better person, this is what I can do for a better society, for better relationships with the people around me. Tupac is all of us.
There have been over a half dozen Tupac albums released since his death in 1996. The material varies wildly in terms of content and quality, yet for the most part sales have been consistently solid.
Have Suge Knight and Afeni Shakur ultimately helped or hurt Tupac’s legacy with the release of so much material that may never have been intended to see the light of day?
Mathan: Pac’s legacy was hurt by his sharing of his tracks with wack rappers when he was alive. But yeah, the after death releases do add a nice coat of tarnish to the luster of his myth. In my mind I’m thinking, “Wow, Pac was really prolific…at churning out crap!” It adds to the workhorse myth, but completely undermines any argument of Tupac being a great MC.
EM: As an artist myself, despite numerous people begging, asking, cajoling and threatening, no work of mine ever sees the light of day, as far as anyone who is not me is concerned, until I, as the artist, consider it done. I believe most artists are like me and I definitely think they are doing things outside of what Tupac would have wished.
The reason why artists are so hedgy about their work is because there is usually a reason they don’t want it out, particularly if it is incomplete. The world is now being treated to stunning examples of why. Maybe Tupac would have completed, “fixed” or otherwise finished these songs, maybe he would have scrapped them entirely or used parts of them for something else. We will never know and we are not looking at the artist’s vision here. We are looking at his trash heap foisted onto the public by greedy vultures.
As for whether it helps or hurts his legacy, I equate this period to bloated Elvis’ Vegas years, since you brought him up earlier. Elvis became a laughing stock both shortly before and after he died. In a way, though, I think this is actually helping Tupac’s legacy, as it seems to not be him responsible for this horrible dreck being shoved out into the marketplace. All the bile and irritation will be directed rightfully at his mother and Suge and Tupac will emerge more angelic.
Ashish: Ultimately I feel they will hurt his legacy. As the “left over” material becomes poorer in quality, newer generation fans will attribute the bad stuff to Tupac. Had Tupac lived on, I feel that he would not have remained in the rap game much longer. I don’t think he would have wanted any of these tracks put out.
Jon: The amount of people that support Tupac is crazy. There are legions of fans that even when the complete album isn’t great… I mean lets be honest, Until the End of Time is a great album compared to most rap, but in the standard of Tupac, it’s poor, it was marketed poor, it was used as a cash cow, the single selections were poor, but fans picked it up.
In some regard, I feel they’ve gone to lengths to alter his legacy, by approving release of his music for remixing, having people Tupac didn’t work with, and in cases didn’t even like, on his material, etc. I wish they released more stuff as it was intended, but regardless, the material needs to be released, and I am extremely thankful and appreciative for the work and effort that has gone into doing so.
During Tupac’s “Death Row Years” (from his October 1995 release from prison to his death in 1996) he alienated a very large number of rap fans because of his vocal role in the so-called “East Coast/West Coast” feud. Yet, when he died, it seemed like all the animosity was forgotten, if not forgiven, and everyone loved Tupac. Even more surprising, was that all the fans who had despised him now claimed to have been down with him from the beginning.
How do you explain the sudden change of heart and selective memory in these people who hated Tupac when he was alive, but revered him when he wasn’t?
Mathan: I can say that I was firmly on the East side of the beef (even though I’m from Tucson) and I have never come anywhere near Tupac’s decaying genitals. That said I think that it comes down to the mourning of a Black man who died too soon. Tupac had promise, potential and a lot of other “P” words going for him. He just never got the chance to live up to it. And it should be pointed out that when Pac died, for the most part, he stopped talking trash. Nobody like a loudmouth, but when they shut their mouths things usually cool off.
EM: I have no idea exactly what you are talking about here. It may have been because they viewed Tupac’s attempt to do this as an overt maneuver to be “cool” or sell records or something or they were hot at him for resurrecting some beef that had long been dead (mostly). Tupac struck me as almost trying to be hated, though more in a “rebel you love to hate” vibe. Who knows, really? Fans are fickle by nature and when it was cool to hate on Tupac, they hated on him and when he started generating mass amounts of sympathy, they swung around and said they were down from Day 1. It seems to me they were just led by the nose and followed wherever.
Ashish: Because his death really woke everyone up to reality. Most people, especially fans who watched from the outside, viewed the whole beef as a story, like a movie. They didn’t grasp the reality of it. After Tupac’s death, they realized that the most real and intelligent rapper of their era was gone because of a feud that was really senseless.
Jon: The east coast/west coast beef got blown way out of proportion, and that’s really never what it was. It was Death Row vs. Bad Boy, which really got sparked at the (1995) Source awards, but which goes far deeper than that. Many media outlets seemed to have taken it as a west coast and east coast beef, and played it out as such, perhaps even because rap in general was coastalized with the outlets focusing on rappers in their area. As a result of the coastalization, a lot of East Coast fans hadn’t heard a lot of Tupac, and vice versa. As a result, a lot of exposure to the other side was created as a result, but fans felt as though they had to choose a side, and sided against one side without really knowing the other.
To the fans and even artists that had listened to and followed Tupac, I don’t think any of them questioned the intensity, the intelligence, and the ability of Tupac as a rapper, but frankly I think he scared a lot of people. Now that the drama is over, people are free to listen to and appreciate his music and accomplishments without preset judgments.
What are your thoughts on the proliferation of tracks that feature Tupac “collaborating” with the likes of Nas (Thugz Mansion), Biggie (Runnin’) or the Jay-Z sample of “Me & My Girlfriend”? All of whom feuded with Tupac at various times.
Mathan: To me it’s like having a Tupac link on your album is the new outlandish piece of platinum jewelry (or for your Hip Hop impaired readers; the new trucker hat); you are nobody if you don’t have it checked off on your checklist. For some reason Tupac (an actor) brings instant credibility, and makes you “real.” To me it just makes you real desperate. Plus I hear Afeni is sellin’ them Pac joints for like, 2 for $5.
EM: It is more of the vulture mentality and a last-ditch attempt for many of these artists to attach some credibility and star power to their names. It is all shit. He clearly never intended any of it, at least not in that manner and the people that allowed this maybe subconsciously hate Tupac and themselves for this desecration. The entire thing is nothing but sick. The sum of his achievements in this light means nothing as everything he stood for or against is erased and history is revised in accordance with the needs of someone’s pocketbook. Possibly the best evidence that even his so-called caretakers of his estate admit that Tupac, as a valid artist, barely registered on the scale. If he were, travesties of this nature, would not happen. To his mother and Suge (and perhaps they are the right ones here), he was just a guy who sold a lot of records, the proverbial cash cow, the goose that laid the golden egg, so to speak and since that is all the he is or maybe ever was to them, why should he stop filling that role, merely because he has the unfortunate habit of being deceased? Get used to it, kids, they will NEVER run out of “new” material and this shit will go on and on until YOU stop buying it.
Ashish: Part of me says it is good. The man is dead and there is no point in carrying on “beefs” that died with Pac. But at the same time, you have to think about what the man wanted, and if Pac is watching from above, he probably would not want his vocals mixed and matched with people who he never got along with or respected.
Jon: In my opinion, it’s great that people Tupac had beef with during his life give him the props he deserves, but I think on that same notion, it’s gone too far. Do I think the beefs should be squashed? Yes, of course. But remixing Tupac’s songs – Ja Rule doing “Pain” and putting it on his album, Jay-Z turning a classic Pac track into a pop track for sales, all these rappers coming out using Pac as a blueprint to money making, etc. It’s too far when Nas is on a Pac album while they remove Spice 1 from a track. It’s too far when you’ve got people Pac never knew, paying to be on albums, when artists like Richie Rich, C-Bo, E-40, and on and on, aren’t getting put on. They don’t seem to mind putting Eminem and 50 Cent on a track to market something through MTV, but God forbid they should put some of Pac’s less known friends on an album and have to actually promote the thing.
The events of September 7, 1996 and their tragic conclusion on September 13 set off a chain reaction that’s still being felt. Pac died, Suge Knight went to jail, Death Row lost its lucrative deal with Interscope, then its artist began to jump ship.
If the whole “Las Vegas” incident never happened how would Pac and the rap game look today?
Mathan: I’ve gotta believe Tupac would have retired from music, and focused on acting. Movies are much more profitable. Jada probably wouldn’t have married Will. Death Row might actually be relevant. Biggie would have blessed us with some truly great gems. Jay Z wouldn’t be as popular. Nas probably wouldn’t have dropped those wack albums. Hopefully the South wouldn’t have risen to the acclaim they have today. Puff Daddy would still be Puff Daddy and J Lo would be with him. Ma$e might still be rapping. I doubt we would have had a “shiny suit era” (which I believe was a direct attempt at getting over the twin tragedies) I think Bad Boy would still be a powerhouse, since B.I.G. would have been a major draw. As a result Def Jam wouldn’t be as powerful. But the Wu would still be non-factors. Oh yeah, and Hip Hop would be brighter because it wouldn’t have had the twin tragedies of Tupac and Biggie.
EM: Chuck D would not have had to come out and make people question either his genius or insanity by publicly stating that Tupac lived. Tupac would still have jumped labels, though he would have met the same fate that hit other rappers when the fans decided that gangsta rap was played out. Maybe he would have went pop or something. Or maybe he would have turned his focus to movies entirely. Or been flat broke — a large part of his time in the final days was spent going from studio to studio doing “guest raps”…for a fee.
His mother would not have become the media/publicity/attention whore she is today….well, theoretically. Suge would still have gone to jail. Dre and Snoop would still have bailed from Death Row, though Dre might not have been so eager to hitch his wagon to a white rapper from Detroit. Biggie would still be alive, quite likely and P. Diddy would never have come close to the heights of stardom he currently enjoys. A entire rock greatest hits album collection would not have been sampled and utterly ruined by Diddy in the process. Ice-T and Cube would still go the way of the silver and small screen, leaving the largest void of them all. The main changes would have been with those whose worlds his passing impacted the greatest, i.e. Suge Knight and Death Row Records’, his mother’s, Notorious B.I.G.’s, his family and Sean “Puffy” Combs and Bad Boy Records and how that would have all shook out is, ultimately, anyone’s guess.
Ashish: If Pac was alive today, I don’t feel he would still be in the rap scene. He would probably be a community leader, an activist, and an actor, all his real passions. As Pac was growing older, he seemed to feel less of a connection to the “rap game” which at times fell to child like feuds and name calling. He was very much above all of that and his intelligence was really being wasted as just a rapper. I think he would have evolved into a fantastic actor and a respected albeit controversial leader. It’s a shame that he died before he really reached what he was capable of.
I don’t know if the rap game would be very different than where it is now. The fact is that the world changed a lot since Pac died. Rap has entered the mainstream and therefore has turned into more “pop” than “hardcore rap” which was hot when Death Row was on top. After rough economic times and 9/11, people would have wanted “fun” rap like Nelly. Of course, as lots of material from Eminem shows, had Pac remained in the game, he would still be the top player. It’s just that he could have passed rap by a few years ago.
Jon: Real. Peaceful, unified, political. Pac could have used his knowledge, his determination, and most importantly, his heart, to flip the rap game and at least in part, take it away from corporations. Lets face it, much of rap is pop, and artists are controlled, most often exploited. I think Pac had the knowledge and determination to get to the top and had the heart to make well of the position. But everything happens for a reason, and I’m glad that so much is being influenced right now, people in every day lives, media, schools, families, there are workshops about domestic abuse and poverty etc. that use Tupac’s lyrics. It’s amazing, and there are a lot of people out there looking to take the torch from Pac and continue where he left off.
I haven’t always been positive about the Estate of Tupac, but feel I’ve been fair, and called it like I’ve seen it. This documentary and this soundtrack, I think has been by far the best thing they have ever done. I’ve yet to see the documentary at the time of this interview, so I’ll post my thoughts on that at another time, but the mainstream exposure this has generated, is going to shed a new light on Tupac, and expose him to the majority of people like never before. I’ve got people who never knew what Tupac was about, parents of people, all asking me about this documentary, and it’s going to give them the knowledge they need to refrain from stereotypes, and related to him at whatever level they do. I’m also happy about what they did from the soundtrack, (with the exception of One Day at a Time and Realest Killaz but we won’t get into that), in that they put a variety of tracks on it, from various times in his career. It’s going to reach people at a level they connect to, and get them to go back and revisit his work, and outstanding career. I just hope that people take the time to listen and get the message.
I would like to extend my sincere thanks to Mathan Erhardt, Evocator Manes, Ashish Pabari and Jon Peters for their participation in this roundtable.
Next, in Part X of Countdown to Resurrection, the series will conclude with The 7 Myths of Tupac Shakur. It promises to explore what was real and what wasn’t about this controversial figure.
