Welcome to another Marvel Handbook
Hi everyone we’re back on schedule this week and have a very long article again. Personally I’m hoping this week ends the Superman lifting Thor’s hammer thing but I’m not sure. With our fickle posters and e-mailers you never know. So Daron think we can do it?
Well if you’ll recall, I said I wanted to end it a few weeks back, but if our readers want to keep talking about who are we not to give them that little pleasure. I won’t be bringing it, and will try not to fan too many flames. The only thing I wanted clarified was the whole susceptibility vs weakness thing”¦
On your question last week about how many times we’ve covered the clone saga, I don’t have numbers but I know we’ve covered that the most. I mean it seems like we do it at least once a month. I’ll give an approximate number of 20 more or less times.
I assume Daron likely will say something about me ignoring him here at some point. Either way let’s start this up partner.
Why would I say that, you just answered my question. *Shakes head and walks away*
Jon emails
Hey man, good to have you back! I was starting to worry there for a while. Thinking maybe someone had drugged you and buried you alive and then went out in your costume and tried to replace you in order to “Become the Spider” or something. Hard drive crash is more mundane, but still bad. Gotta admit there’d be some poetry in having been Kraven’s Last Hunt.
In celebration of your return, I’m going to go through the column and nitpick. :-D
Good to be back and very good Kraven’s Last Hunt reference. Still one of the best Spider-Man stories ever done. Nit pick away to. But watch out for Daron.
Can’t a guy walk down the hall to get a cup of coffee for one minute without being thrust into all this silliness? Yeah”¦I guess not.
But first, I want to relate a bit of an anecdote to your readers, and maybe you guys as well. Y’see, back when Stan Lee came up with the character of Spider-Man, he was always thinking of ways to try and differentiate what Marvel was doing as related to the Distinguished Competition. He looked at the names of their big heroes… Superman, Batman… and noticed that both were one-word names. Therefore, when it came time to give a name to this new hero of his, he decided to deliberately make it a hyphenated word, Spider-Man. Not Spiderman, because that visually resembles “Superman” and kinda sounds like an accountant’s last name as well. I believe I read somewhere that one of Stan’s pet peeves is seeing Spider-Man without the hyphen. Turns out it’s one of mine as well, but I think it’s better to educate than to berate.
But, yeah, it’s a hyphenated word, “Spider-Man.” Not “Spiderman”. If all the Nexus readers and writers were to start spelling it correctly, I bet Stan would be all warm and fuzzy and smiley and stuff.
Haha yep I always knew that one. I don’t change emails or anything. I see no reason to. But it is one of my complaints too. I always spell it right. But I’m weird lol.
*Crosses arms and looks away*
I refuse to defend my spelling of Spider-Man here on the net. Have you seen hoe most people spell stuff here? Yeash.
Okay, now for the fighters… leaving out the gods and the cosmic guys, but not leaving out the use of powers. Leaving out trainers (like Stick) because most aren’t active:
1- Logan: Besides the berserker stuff, he spent a lot of time training in multiple disciplines of martial arts, including but most likely not exclusive to ninjutsu and your regularly scheduled japanese karate. I’d say he’s also most likely picked up some judo from training with Cyclops, and I’ve actually seen him drawn using aikido moves as well, so you can probably add that one to the list. And his adaptive fighting style also demonstrates, at least in principle, some jeet kune do influence as well. And then, if you piss him off real good, he’ll just tear you to pieces. And then there’s the experience.
2- Shang Chi: I have a Bruce Lee/kung-fu bias, and Shang Chi is basically an alternate reality version of Bruce.
3- Daredevil: Radar sense+enhanced senses=hyper-awareness. Add “intensive martial arts training” to that and add Murdock’s focus and intensity… yeah, he’s there.
4- Spider-Man: All that stuff I just said about training in multiple disciplines and using principles of martial arts? Throw it out. This is why I’m including powers, because Spidey has superhuman reflexes and the precognitive spider-sense thing. Because of the lack of training, his offense is kinda limited, but the defense can more than make up for that. He fights hyper-instinctively. If he got some training… especially from Shang Chi… he’d be close to unstoppable in hand-to-hand combat.
5- Deadpool: Yeah, I said it. A lot of youse guys are forgetting that he took down Taskmaster in hand-to-hand single combat by inventing an unrecognizable fighting style on the spot. Takes more than a little skill to be able to do that.
Iron Fist, Bullseye, Elektra, Batroc, Silver Samurai, and Shadowcat all deserve a mention as well. Cap’n Murrca’s got the military/guerilla training as well, but I think he’s more of a brawler and tactician than anything else. Taskmaster is freakin’ GREAT, but he’s all technique and no principle. Gambit’s only dangerous if he gets a pack of cards or started flipping rubber bands or something. Punisher can just put the guns away and lick my balls.
Not a bad list. Missing some but it’s still not bad. I think this debate could last a long time. I think I may have to call a DQ soon. I will with the actually field of 64 in ways. Best fighter will win. Top 12 will be ranked as such. Of course we might need a rule of no powers. You know like Thor can’t all lightning on someone. Just straight out hand-to-hand combat.
Okay! On to the hammer thing!
I don’t think Superman could lift Thor’s hammer (without special dispensation, as in JLA/Avengers) because, quite frankly, he’s not worthy as a warrior. Mjolnir is a war hammer (even though it’s drawn as a sledgehammer for some retarded reason), and Superman isn’t a soldier. He’s a policeman. With Superman not being willing to use it with lethal force, as it was built for… nope. I don’t think Mjolnir would let him just pick it up. But it did let Wonder Woman pick it up (see the Marvel vs. DC crossover) because, even though her mission is as an ambassador for peace, she’s an Amazon warrior… made abundantly clear by her actions against Max Lord and prior statements regarding, say, Dr. Light. If you remember, she stated she’d prefer the use of lethal force as opposed to the mind tampering they did to him.
So, Diana: yes. Clark: no; he’s a pansy. A really, really powerful, fundamentally honest archetypal-hero pansy, but, according to Norse warrior standards, a pansy nonetheless. Just for the heck of it… Batman: no, because he’s psychotic and unworthy. It’s not a popularity contest. Spider-Man’s too uncertain; flawed. It’s magic and religion, arbitrary stuff like that counts.
Very good arguments. I agree with how you lay it out as well. I don’t see Batman or Spidey lifting the hammer either. Wonder Woman and Cap yes. It’s a believe system to. Remember what the hammer says. “Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of… Thor” The inscription is assumed to be part magical, as it appears to all English readers but was crafted by non-English people, before the language was invented
People who have lifted it are:
Mainstream (Earth 616)
Odin
Captain America
Beta Ray Bill
Storm
Buri (alias Tiwaz, Thor’s paternal great-grandfather)
Red Norvell (with the aid of gauntlets)
Eric Masterson (while merged with Thor)
Other
Superman in Avengers/JLA #4 (2003)
Wonder Woman in Marvel vs. DC #3 (1996)
Magni (son of Thor in “Thor, Lord of Earth” future)
Woden (son of Thor in the Guardians of the Galaxy future)
Dargo Ktor (“Once and Future Thor” future)
See now you’re arguing symantics. Especially you Jim, by saying Cap is worthy but Supes isn’t. Last time I checked Cap isn’t all gung ho for taking lives just as Supes isn’t. Cap and Supes are fundamentally the same character except one has powers and ones doesn’t. And to say the Supes isn’t a warrior is a load of crap. Sure he doesn’t kill people regularly (but he has) but then again neither does Diana. Sure she’s killed a few times, but so has Supes when it really came down to him needing to. The point is just because he doesn’t kill doesn’t make him any less a warrior. The same can be said for Bats. He’s just as much a warrior as the rest. In the realm of comics anyone who is fighting for the down trodden or protecting the world is a warrior it’s just a different type of war.
And if Storm is worthy of the hammer then I’d say Supes is, say nothing about the fact that he HAS lifted it”¦
As for the movies, I agree wholeheartedly with Daron on his top two comic movies of all time. But I haven’t seen any of the others he listed (or most of the others you listed) so I’d have to by default stick “The Crow” at #3 and almost honestly put “Howard the Duck” at #4 because I, um, liked it. And then the first X-Men movie. I didn’t like the first Spider-Man movie a whole lot, though it had its moments. It was too blockbustery and heart-stringy. My brother and I busted out laughing when I pointed out that three quarters of the audience the sunday after opening day chose the big “Pete turns Mary Jane down and everybody’s crying” scene at the end to either cough or clear their throat. The heart-wrenching scene shouldn’t be so awkward it’s funny. Haven’t seen the second; refuse to pass judgment ’cause I might like it. But I’m not a movie guy for the most part, so I probably don’t count.
You have Howard the Duck on your list that high? What the hell are you smoking? Because I’m thinking most druggies would like some of that. Wow that’s insane.
Oh and my list was based on what I’ve seen. I haven’t seen the Batman or Superman movies in quite some time. Never saw Batman Beyond or Hellboy. Some others to. So can’t judge.
Just because you haven’t seen the original Supes movie shouldn’t disqualify it. It’s a wonderful look at the Man of Steel. And I didn’t say Batman Beyond, I said Batman Begins, and you really should see it. As I said it’s easily the best comic book movie to date.
So, uh, yeah, great to have The Handbook back!
Yeah. You didn’t nitpick too much. Very good email. Please email again.
It’s good to be back.
Chris emails
Hey guys,
Hey Chris
A few questions and a comment:
1. Why would some stories, i.e. Millar MK Spider-man be considered non continuity? Personally, I never really cared if a story I am reading is in cannon or not. However, I recently read a Joe Q interview and he basically said it was up to the readers whether a stories was in continuity or not. Not sure if there is an answer for this, but it just sort confused me.
Actually I don’t think Millar’s Spidey was out of continuity. I mean have we seen Venom since his MK appearance? Nope. Have we seen Brock? Nope. So his Spidey is in continuity I believe.
As for why some are and some aren’t. As you said the readers have a say in ways. Let’s say that the fans don’t like something like the clone saga in Spidey. Then Marvel or especially JMS could say hey it never happened. The stories would show it. It also comes down to the writers.
The writer can say alright the clone saga never happened like JMS did. He did it with fan backing to. But still a writer can change continuity.
Little fact that Marvel hasn’t run on continuity full time for awhile also counts. They need to fix some of the continuity in the books. I’ve been thinking that for some time. I would love Marvel to fix it. Hell I’d love to fix it for them. The writers don’t recall stuff or just dismiss it as they like now a days.
The other answer to your questions is that for a long time, it was stated that the entire MK line wasn’t in fact considered continuity, but you know how messed up Marvel Continuity usually is so it wasn’t a big deal for them to all of a sudden say, “oh now it IS continuity.”
2. Have either of you caught any of Justice League Unlimited? Holy crap that’s a good show. I know it’s not Marvel and sometimes you both might claim to not be DC fans. I just thought you might appreciate as a comics fan in general.
I’ve seen it. It’s not bad for a DC show. Oh and who said Daron didn’t like DC. I don’t like DC too much though lol. I think I only read 1 DC book now. Maybe 2. Don’t ask.
Umm, yeah I’ve never claimed to not be a DC fan. I’m usually the one coming to DC’s defense here when the zombies get a little out of hand :)
3. Could you run through the Mutant X series for me. I caught the first 10 or so issues then dropped off. I don’t think they ever published a trade. I just wondered what the climax of the story was before Alex was returned to the 616.
Sure. This might take some time. Might be short but I can do it with short synopsis of each issue:
1. Havok finds himself in a parallel universes battling against Nick Fury, S.H.I.E.L.D. Mandroids and the Sentinels as the leader of The Six (Bloodstorm, Brute, Fallen, Havok, Ice-Man, Marvel Woman). He also is married to Madelyne and has a son named Scotty. Elektra is revealed as Scotty’s babysitter
2. Havok loses the chance to get back to his own universe when The Six team up with the Fantastic Four (Ben Grimm, Johnny Storm, Reed Richards, Sue Storm-Richards) to battle the multiverse travelling villain, Moot. The FF are powerless in this universe unlike 616
3. After crash landing the Blackbird jet behind hostile Canadian borders, The Six find themselves up against The Pack (Sabretooth, Wild Child, Wolverine). Alpha Flight (Aurora, Guardian, Northstar, Puck, Sasquatch, Shaman, Snowbird) also appears
4. Goblin Queen takes over Marvel Woman.
5. Man-Spider (Peter Parker) enlists the help of The Six to battle The Green Goblin (Norman Osborn). The Fallen joins the Goblin Queen. Brute is arrested.
6. Brute is attacked in court by Bullseye. He later joins Goblin Queen. Matt Murdock appears to defend Brute
7. Havok and Elektra go cross country to hide Scotty. The other members of the Six join Goblin Queen. Forge and Kitty also go underground
8. Robert Kelly becomes president and is taken control by the Goblin Queen. Havok and Elektra travel with Scotty to the X-Mansion, but find it empty, save for Cerebro
’99 Annual. The Defenders (Doc Sampson, Dr. Strange, Stingray, Yellowjacket) join Havok to fight the FF and Six under Goblin Queen’s control. Firestar and Vendetta also appeared
9. Ben Grimm leads Havok to the The Morlocks’ underground refuge camp led by Mole Man and Callisto. But the Six attack and Magneto shows up to save the day.
10. The X-Men (Magneto, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Polaris, Quicksilver, Rogue) join Havok’s cause. Reed Richards creates the Nimrod to help Goblin Queen’s cause.
11. Bloodstorm kidnaps Scotty Summers but he escapes with Brute.
12. Havok and the X-Men gain new ally Doctor Doom. They go after Goblin Queen and take her down. We see many others in the galaxy watching as well in The Black Queen, Captain Mar-vell, Deathbird, Dracula, Empress R’igill, Galactus, and Uatu. Namor also appears
13. We see Bloodstorm’s origin of being bitten by Dracula and Kitty going to take her down. Colossus also appears
14. Havok has his first encounter with his long thought dead brother Cyclops and his group of Streamers (Binary, Lockheed, Nova, Silver Surfer). Gladiator and the Kree Death Squad show up but are stopped by Uatu.
15. The X-Mansion is destroyed by an anti-mutant terrorist attack. Creed is sworn in and promotes Nick Fury to the rank of General. The Six go underground and meet up with The Hellfire Club (The Black Queen: Kitty Pryde, Sebastion Shaw, and Sunfire). Captain America joins the group as well as Cerebro
16. The Six (Bloodstorm, Brute, Captain America, Cerebro, Havok, Ice-Man) go to New Orleans to save Gambit’s daughter, Raven. S.H.I.E.L.D.’s new Espers Robots kidnap Raven. Gambit joins the team leaving a dead Bella Donna behind.
17. Cyclops and Havok reunite to fight Mister Sinister and we find Jean Grey has joined him
18. General Fury puts his “Children of Humanity” camp into effect. The Punisher faces the Six as well.
19. Professor Xavier is on the run from The Horsemen when he stumbles upon The Six (Death/The Fallen, Famine, Pestilence, War).
’00 Annual. Storm and Gambit face the Horsemen. Gambit also confronts Sinister who has his son now called X-Man.
20. Jean helps Havok find the true villain is not Apocalyse but Xavier.
21. We see the origins of how Xavier became evil and much like Apocalypse. As well as the deaths of Moira and Juggernaut.
22. The Six (Bloodstorm, Brute, Captain America, Gambit, Havok, Ice-Man), Apocalypse and his Horsemen and Magneto all join forces to prepare to face Xavier. They face a false Galactus and Heralds (Drax, the Silver Surfer and Nova) as well as Xavier and Sinister.
23. We finally get to the big fight Havok vs. Sinister and Xavier. The Six are taken out of play and so is Apocalypse. In the end Havok and the Six win of course.
24. Brute regains his intelligence and agrees to help Havok
25. Havok is about to be sent home but stays to stop a creature which escaped into the Mutant X reality from his own
26. The Marauders (Cannonball, Husk, Jubilee, Sunspot, Wolfsbane) escape the vault. Gambit and Bloodstorm go on the hunt
27. The Six go search for Bloodstorm and Gambit. The Outcasts (Cloak, Dagger and others) battle them but Bloodstorm comes out on top. Dracula come back to life.
28. Wolverine come back into the Six’s lives. He faces Sabretooth as Havok and Jean go to help. We find out he’s married to Mariko and Creed goes after her.
29. Wolverine, Jean and Havok learn Sabretooth has Wolverines’ family after James Hudson tells them. In the end Wolverine kills Creed
30. The Avengers (The Black Widow, Deathlok, Hawkeye, Iron Giant Man, Typhoid Mary) show up to stop The Six from going to Canada as Havok, Jean and Wolverine has Canada’s super soldiers
31. Captain America goes berzerk and attacks everyone as his mutant powers fully manifest and go out of control. As the Beyonder shows up.
’01 Annual. This issue has about everyone in the Mutant X universe in it. The Abomination, Absorbing Man, Black Panther, Daredevil, Dr. Octopus, Drax, Father Blake, The Lethal Legion (Brother Voodoo, Hellstrom, Devil Dinosaur, Daredevil, Fin Fang Foom, Gargoyle, Moon Knight, Slapstick), Living Comet, Lizard, Namorita, Nova, Power Man, Iron Fist, Strong Guy, Thor Corp (Beta Ray Bill, Thor, Valkyrie), Thunderbird, Titania, Warriors Three (Amora, Balder, Sif), Wonder Man, Avengers ( Black Widow, Deathlok, Hawkeye, Iron Giant Man, Typhoid Mary), Beyonder, Defenders (Doc Samson, Doctor Strange, Stingray, Yellowjacket), Dr. Doom, Dracula, Elektra, The Fallen, Goblin Queen, Logan, Mariko, Mari & Brian, Namor, Raven, Reed Richards, Scotty Summers, Sentinels, Six (Bloodstorm, Brute, Captain America, Gambit, Havok, Ice-Man, Jean Grey), Spider-Man, The X-Men (Magneto, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Polaris, Rogue, Quicksilver) All for the big Beyonder match.
32. The last issue. It’s everyone vs. the Beyonder and Goblin Force as Havok is sent home
4. Also could you run through Secret War. I just want the gist of the story, but I don’t want to track it down. I seem to remember it originally being advertised as leading into the beginning of New Avengers but due to the delays the plot was changed. There is a strong possibility that I made that up.
Oh this is fun. Ok I hope you mean the last one by Bendis. Not the original. I could cover that another time.
We find out that one year ago that Nick Fury recruited Luke Cage, Daredevil, Spider-Man, Captain America, Wolverine, Black Widow and the mystery woman, Daisy Johnson to deal with a mission in Latveria. The secret was so big that all of them had to use different uniforms as undercover agents and had their memories erased of it but Cap.
They destroyed a secret group led by Jack O’Lantern (Jason Philip Macendale, Jr.). The cat is let out of the bag a year later as Cage is attacked.
It also involves new looks and improved make ups for many villains years later. These villains include: Boomerang, Constrictor, Crimson Dynamo, Crossfire, Eel, Goldbug, Grim Reaper, Hobgoblin, King Cobra, Lady Octopus, Mentallo, Mister Fear, Scorpion, Shocker, Spider-Slayer, Trapster, and Wizard
Of course in the end most any hero known got involved and we found out Nick Fury has been hiding the information and who Daisy Johnson was as well. Nick Fury of course went underground after this mission and revelation. The story will impact Civil War. I suggest you get the trade. It’s pretty good and hard to cover everything here.
5. Last comment on Superman/Thor: I agree with D on this one. There is some confusion over susceptibility vs weakness. If I am interpreting your definition correctly, Supes CANNOT lift the hammer because his weakness to magic would sap his strength. I don’t think that’s the case, otherwise this would happen with all magical items/people. (Example: Dr. Fate blows a spaghetti fart at Supes, Supes barfs up his intestines and dies.) What I’m saying is Superman COULD lift and use Mjolnir, yet it would also knock him into yesterday if someone hit him with it (or by swinging it around him himself upside the head.)
I’m pretty sure I said almost exactly that (minus the Dr. Fate farting thing) at least once if not more than once.
That being said please stop with this discussion because ultimately it doesn’t matter anyway. We aren’t going to ever see a comic where this is addressed,(I don’t count JLA/Avengers cause it pretty much sucked and I liked Crisis on Infinite Earths a lot better since it was kinda the same idea.) Sorry for the run-on sentence. But this discussion, and in the same thought Iron Man/X-men, have digressed to the point of petty bickering (and sorta retarded theories, see above.) This is the type of argument I used to hear at my OLD comic store from the jackasses who hung out there 24/7 yelling and hem hawing about, except their beef was about Magic (the card game) characters vs. whatever hot characters book Wizard gave the editorial BJ to that month. So PLEASE just let it go, don’t be the dorks at the comic store. I know this letter is going long and i apologize. It maybe the mental stress of having to go 2 weeks without a handbook, I am glad you’re back.
Hugs and Kisses,
Lol I’ll drop this one. Hell I’m getting tired of it now. What’s it been two months lol? Btw I thought this was like a comic store type deal in ways. You know bringing debates here as well as questions. I admit comic stores get worse since this is more for information not just debates on who can do what. I like the little debates though. But this one got a little carried away.
Let’s all agree that We can’t agree on if Superman should be allowed to lift the hammer. We have had arguments for and against. I don’t believe he should Daron thinks he should. You are all welcome to keep emailing about it of course and I assume other emails might be covered in this very column with it. I’ll say my last peace on it here though.
Superman is a pansy. Lol. Sorry I never really liked Superman. Of all the DC characters. He just seemed lame. No weaknesses or very few of them. He seems to get more and more powerful as well. They can’t decide on killing him or leaving him live at times or just changing his powers all together even at points.
Superman’s been around the longest I admit and without him likely there would not be a Spider-Man, Wolverine, Cap and many others. But that dosen’t mean he’s perfect. He just doesn’t seem worthy to pick up the hammer to me.
Oh and Chris that hug and kiss better be for Daron. I don’t swing that way lol.
*Shakes head*
You know homophobia is the biggest give away to actually being gay, Jimbo. I must say thou doth protest too much.
Anyway, I agree about letting it drop, but as stated above, if it’s brought up, we shouldn’t be rude and just dismiss comments. And as for the comic store comparison, you’re right this is like that, but that’s sort of the point isn’t it. We just TRY to make it more reasonable.
Thanks for the email though, bud.
Rob emails
Jim and Daron,
I was trying to keep my mouth shut on this issue but my hand has been forced.
Very well. Your free to reply to anything. I know where you’re going though. I hope to settle this thing myself soon.
My argument starts with Marvel’s own website
This leads to a directory containing a limited number of marvel characters—mostly heroes. Using this directory, which contains a category for “Fighting Skills”, the list should look like this:
1(tie) Captain America, Wolverine, Black Panther
2(tie) Nick Fury, Elektra, Punisher, Iron Fist
3(tie) Shang-Chi, Daredevil, Bullseye
So, directly from the horses’ mouth as they say and the argument is at a close….
Well, not really since I can’t put my faith in the directory as it lists Wolverine at the same strength level as Spiderman, which is clearly not the case. Makes me question the whole ranking scale.
Anyway, the argument found in the Handbook gets very sketchy since the rules haven’t really been set in stone and it seems as though the argument is taking on more of a “Who would win in a fight?” tone. Since we are eliminating all cosmic/superhuman strength based characters (Thor, Herc.), how are we to handle the powers of those on the list? Do we remove them entirely, rendering Daredevil effectively blind? No claws for Wolverine, no shield for Cap, and no guns for Punisher, but what about Wolverine’s healing factor and Caps’ enhanced strength? Since we are discussing fighting ability only, I think the rules should be:
No weapons
No mutant powers
Daredevil still has his radar, Cap remains enhanced, and Iron Fist can still use the Iron Fist since these aspects are the essence each character.
In order to break up the ties found in my list, we have to look at other traits of the characters such as speed, strength, and durability. Based on this, I completely disagree with Daron that “Being the best athlete has absolutely NOTHING to do with being the best fighter”. How can it not? Look, if a character is stronger, faster, and more durable than another, but has less skill, it can even the playing field. For example, Spiderman has been shown to hold his own against much more skilled opponents like DD. This is due to his superhuman speed and reflexes rendering him very difficult to hit and you can’t defeat what you can’t hit.
So I think the list is as follows
1. Captain America – enhanced attributes due to super-soldier formula
2. Wolverine – subject to feral rage, years of experience (over 120 years), trained by CIA, Weapon X, and samurai/ninja.
3. Black Panther – enhanced attributes
4 (tie). Iron Fist/Shang-Chi/ Batroc – very skilled but essentially normal humans who can control their chi.
5. Stick (The Hand) – responsible for training some of the best.
6. Nick Fury – advantage of years of training from his serum that prolongs his life.
7. Elektra – trained by Stick
8. Daredevil – Trained in boxing and by the ninja Stick
9. Punisher – don’t overlook special ops training, just ask Nick Fury
10. Bullseye – gone toe to toe with DD and Punisher, killed Elektra
11. Deadpool – enhanced attributes from Weapon X, but not very skilled
12. Zaran – relies too much on weapons
Honorable mention: Sabretoothâ€â€tends to rely on feral side, but is highly trained.
Very nice list. I have to say it. You did quite well. Came up with some great arguments for your list and characters. Even gave a link. That’s research. You did a good job. Can’t argue to much either.
Besides the fact that I completely disagree with you about the athlete thing (more on that in a second), the original ranking here was for best fighters, not who could beat who. The original intent was to find out who was the best trained/skilled fighter. And because of this, Cap doesn’t make it very high on my list (still haven’t heard back on that whole he knows every martial art in the world – that I disputed from last week). The rest of your list isn’t bad, but I still don’t see Wolvie being as high as say Black Panther, Iron Fist, Shang-Chi, and a few others.
Now to your comments on fighting. First, when we’re talking about heroes fighting heroes you’re not going to get the best fight out of them because they’re not going to want to hurt the other person, that’s one reason why these types of lists are so hard to judge.
Second, and I don’t mean this to be rude, but have you ever been in a fight? I’ve been a martial arts instructor (Kenpo) for over 6-years and not only have I trained and trained with guys who were bigger and stronger than me, but I’ve also knocked one or two of them out in a single punch because I knew what I was doing. I’m talking about a guy with over a hundred pounds on me, who was very athletic. Things like that aren’t really going to come into account unless you’re talking about something like a boxing match where the two opponents are just trading punches. In a real fight, the intent is take out your opponent as quickly as possible. And this is where skill and training is going to win out over athleticism every time. At least in the real world”¦ And fighting skills or no, I’ve got the answer for Cap, it’s called called-shot-eye. I don’t see (see what I did there, hahaha) Cap doing well while blinded. Now if he had been trained for such a thing”¦
I also have to place my vote for the defacto #1 to be Taskmaster. He has studied and can mimic the moves of most, if not all of the most skilled fighters (even Batmanâ€â€see JLA/Avengers #4) in the comic universe.
Haha We all agree on the Taskmaster thing now I think. I think Taskmaster might just have to get a really good cover in one of the future issues. Like me listing all the fighters he’s studied and all. I might do it next week but have to be asked. I think we all agree. Marvel should use him more.
Now regarding Superman and Mjolnir. Superman is worthy of lifting the hammer. Captain America lifted it and Cap is a comic icon representing truth, justice, and the American way…exactly like Superman does. Hell, they are pretty much the same character and what they represent along with their morals makes them worthy of lifting the hammer.
Even Storm lifted it and Wonder Woman too. When Supes held it, he commented on the power, not because he wasn’t worthy, but because those who wield it GAIN the power of Thor. So, Supes’ power + Thor’s power = too much to handle, so must release hammer. Yes, Superman is susceptible to magic, but that has nothing to do with his ability to pick up the hammer. He doesn’t get weak/hurt just being near magic (WW’s magic lasso) and if that were the case then he couldn’t combat magic beings which has done plenty of times and won. Superman’s susceptibility to magic does not act like his weakness to kryptonite.
Well at least we can agree on something :)
*zips mouth closed.* Read earlier reply.
Thanks for the column,
Welcome
Glad you enjoy it, hope I didn’t offend too much.
Joshua emails
out of order, and writing in for the first time… but been reading for a few weeks…
“Hell in reality Ronin should have been Taskmaster.”
this was one of the first things out of my mouth when bendis “explained” who ronin was in whatever forgettable issue of new avengers it was in. not in the same words, but the idea was exactly the same. Since I don’t want to get into the issues i have with the story in that title though, this is why taskmaster can NOT be #1 on any fighting list, no matter how much i like him as a character (which has been a hell of a lot in the past few years):
while he can mimic the actions of others, he can’t do it until he sees it. if said opponent comes up with a move they have never used before, he doesn’t know it. also, if it is an opponent who’s body is trained to deal with the stress of a “special move” (for lack of a btter term), taskmaster’s body isn’t, necessarily. combine those two, and there’s a chance the higher levelled martial artists in the marvel U don’t need to worry about moves taskmaster does know.
i’ve known decent martial artists who’ve “created moves” in fights, so it’s perfectly acceptable.
Well he still is a master. He also is a teacher. He’s trained some of the best. Without him there might not be a Spider-Woman, Crossbones, Agent X, Anaconda, Cutthroat, Deadpool, Diamondback, Jolt, Mad-Dog, Snapdragon, Speed Demon, Spymaster, or USAgent so don’t put him down. He can teach and create moves.
as for DD not getting his “sonar” when fighting because it’s a power… well, then he should get his sight back, right? because the accident was one and the same that caused them. plus, his power was “failing” him during some training, making the argument he trained because he couldn’t rely on his powers anyways.
You have a point. Without the sonar he should see. The sonar is part of his powers. BUT he’s still got fighting skills with or without powers. So he should keep it to me.
as for cap’n A, think about this: while a bunch of other marvel U guys were crying, captain america was standing toe-to-toe with thanos. not saying he’s #1, but that should get some consideration.
But here again we’re talking about a shield and willpower, versus a cosmic being, not a weapon’s free hand-to-hand brawl,
I say he’s 1A. Since we’re arguing more and more for Taskmaster lol. Those two are like equals in ways. Might be the best fight you would see of any of them.
“Hmmmmmmmm Maybe. You might have just given a solid reason Superman can lift the hammer. But the magic factor should stop those factors. I think I’m correct on that theory. The hammer is magic. Superman is weak against magic so in essence he can’t lift it.”
“Jim, I think you just read what you want to read. Knightmare explained the magic thing above, and it basically states the same thing I’ve said in the past. The hammer having magic properties in no way would stop Supes from hefting it. Do I really have to explain the difference between a susceptibility to magic and a weakness again?”
BESIDES the fact that the whole “superman has a magic weakness” is the most asinine, retarded load of improperly explained crap ever told to us by DC…
a weakness to being ATTACKED by magic is not the same thing as INABILITY to weild. why? simple. while not legal, i can shoot someone pretty easily with a loaded gun, that, lo-and-behold, can shoot me just as easily in someone else’s hand.
as for being WORTHY to weild it… whatever. if i remember correctly, even storm has been able to wield it… someone weak-willed enough to be a pick-pocket.
*keeps mouth shut*
And since he agrees with me here, that’s probably for the best anyway”¦
in conclusion…
taskmaster: awesome, should have been ronin, but not #1.captain america: pretty awesome, and has handed DD his ass.
superman: is able and worthy to use mjolnir, and this is coming from someone who doesn’t particularly care for new george perez artwork nor kurt busiek stories.
~j!, courtesy 4 capital brewery maibock.
PS  i have no issues with the udon TASKMASTER!!!
You have no issues with Udon Taskmaster? Interesting. First one I really ever heard say that. It’s not the worst design. But I like the old fashions Taskmaster uniform myself
an addendum to my email last night… and not for me to
get in the way of someone’s rant…
Knightmare emails:
“And then there’s Gambit…AND now you tell me that in one version of X-Continuity he’s a F#$&@! CLONE!!??!! What sorta nefarious act of douchebaggery is that? Memorandum to all comic creators who frequent this site, and aspiring writers as well: No Clones. EVER. Between Spider-Man and George Lucas, you’d think you’d learn.”
no clones ever… cool, we can get rid of cable. his mom was a CLONE named madelyne pryor. but back to gambit. he’s only made cooler by being a clone, because otherwise, he’s
only good for giving ultimate rogue some cool eyes. and that issue of uncanny where he unloaded a deck of cards into gladiator.
plus, since it’s bitch about gambit time, if he can’t charge up anything organic, he can’t charge anything with carbon. so, someone needs to come up with a better explanation… not you guys, but marvel.
yeah, i said another piece that was probably unwelcome… so here i go!
I had no complaints. Your free to speak you opinion here. Hell that’s why we’re here. I have no problems with clones as long as they are not over used. The clone saga was not a problem till it lasted like a year or more longer then needed. Simple enough to have cut that whole thing in half and still get the gist. I have no problems with Gambit as a clone either. Actually works and makes sense.
Plus if I’m right on the Apocalypse thing I like what they are going to do to Gambit to.
Hell you could wipe Madyelne and Cable from continuity for all I care. Clones are usually a plot contrivance that probably could have been done better, but do to laziness and bad writing we get clones instead. That being said, I think we should have a bash on Gambit issue sometime soon”¦who’s with me?
wolfbaronxylo
I was wondering if you could write an essay on the underlying paradox of Daredevil, id est, how he is driven by an obsession with rules and the law, but by virtue of his vigilantism is breaking the rules and law.
Can I say this answer in a few ways.
1. I don’t do essays.
2. I hate essays.
3. Yes I can answer you but not in essay form
Now the answer:
It’s a lot to do with his father.
Matthew Murdock was raised by single father and fading boxer “Battling Jack” Murdock in the Hell’s Kitchen neighborhod of New York City. The elder Murdock instilled in Matt the virtues of education and non-violence in order to rise above the hard life they led. Matt, taunted by bullies who called the bookish youth “Daredevil”, vented his frustration and anger by working out in secret.
After Jack refused to throw a title bout Matt was attending, the Fixer had Jack killed. Matt was devastated both by the loss of his father and the judicial system’s failure to convict the men responsible. Mindful of his childhood promise not to lead a violent life, he created a new vigilante identity
Realizing the judicial system was imperfect, he felt he could better serve society and work through his own personal torment with a dual career as attorney and costumed crime-fighter.
You have to also recall Matt has identity issues, women issues as well as Death and his religion conflicting him. So I hope that helps.
An essay like this could be interesting, but will most likely label you a major geek if you turn it in a highschool class”¦ though it might be ok in a college class. Weird huh?
That, and how old is Nick Fury?
Well they have yet to change his past to make him younger so he still fought in WW II. He was probably born in the late 1910s to mid 1920s.
Any other post from the board I’m holding off for next week everyone. But here’s the Decimation update of who’s known of the 198
1. Alchemy (198 Files)
2. Anole (New X-Men 21)
3. Apocalypse (X-Men 182)
4. Archangel (198 Files)
5. Arclight (198 Files)
6. Aurora (198 Files)
7. Avalanche (198 Files)
8. Banshee (X-Men Deadly Genesis 1)
9. Beast (House of M 8)
10. Beautiful Dreamer (198 Files)
11. Big Betha (GLX-Mas)
12. Tito Bohusk (Exiles 72)
13. Bishop (House of M Day After 1)
14. Black Box (Cable/Deadpool 21)
15. Blindfold (198 Files)
16. Bling (X-Men 177)
17. Jamie Braddock Jr. (198 Files)
18. Bruiser (Runaways 12)
19. Cable (Cable/Deadpool 18)
20. Caliban (198 Files)
21. Cannonball (Cable/Deadpool 18)
22. Catiana (198 Files)
23. Lila Cheney (198 Files)
24. Cloak (Runaways 12)
25. Collective Man (198 Files)
26. Colossus (House of M 8)
27. Cyclops (House of M 8)
28. Dagger (Runaways 12)
29. Dark Beast (198 Files)
30. Darwin the Evolving Boy (X-Men Deadly Genesis 2)
31. Dazzler (New Excalibur 1)
32. Diamond Lil (198 Files)
33. Domino (House of M Day After 1)
34. Doorman (GLX-Mas 1)
35. Dragoness (198 Files)
36. Dust (New X-Men 20)
37. Elixar (New X-Men 20)
38. Empath (198 Files)
39. Erg (House of M Day After 1)
40. Ernst (198 Files)
41. Exodus (198 Files)
42. Fever Pitch (198)
43. Firestar (House of M Day After 1)
44. Flatman (GLX-Mas)
45. Forge (Cable/Deadpool 18)
46. Frenzy (198 Files)
47. Emma Frost (House of M 8)
48. Gambit (House of M Day After 1)
49. Gateway (198 Files)
50. Ghoul (Generation M 1)
51. Glob Herman (198 Files)
52. Havok (House of M Day After 1)
53. Hellion (New X-Men 20)
54. Husk (House of M Day After 1)
55. Iceman (X-Men 178)
56. Icarus (New X-Men 20)
57. Hisako Ichiki (198 Files)
58. Indra (House of M Day After 1)
59. Jazz (198 Files)
60. Madison Jeffries (198 Files)
61. Martha Johansson (198 Files)
62. Johnny (Son of M 1)
63. Johnny (Son of M #1)
64. Justice (House of M Day After 1)
65. Karma (House of M Day After 1)
66. Kid Omega (198 Files)
67. Kylun (198 Files)
68. Lady Mastermind (198 Files)
69. Leech (198 Files)
70. Lifeguard (198 Files)
71. Litterbug (198 Files)
72. Living Monolith (198 Files)
73. Loa (198 Files)
74. Lorelei (198 Files)
75. M (X-Factor 2)
76. Madrox (House of M Day After 1)
77. Magma (House of M Day After 1)
78. Mammomax (House of M Day After 1)
79. Marvel Girl (House of M Day After 1)
80. Match (198 Files)
81. Meltdown (Cable/Deadpool 18)
82. Mentallo (198 Files)
83. Mercury (New X-Men 20)
84. Microbe (New Warriors 5)
85. Micromax (198 Files)
86. Layla Miller (House of M Day After 1)
87. Mister Immortal (GLX-Mas 1)
88. Mister M (Mutopia X 5)
89. Armando Munoz (Deadly Genesis 2)
90. Mystique (X-Men 179)
91. Nightcrawler (House of M 8)
92. Kiden Nixon (198 Files)
93. Nocturne (New Excalibur 1)
94. Northstar (198 Files)
95. Omega Red (198 Files)
96. Outlaw (X-Men 179)
97. Onyxx (198 Files)
98. Peepers (House of M Day After 1)
99. Persuasion (198 Files)
100. Petra (Deadly Genesis 1)
101. Pixie (New X-Men 21)
102. Prism (198 Files)
103. Pulse (X-Men 179)
104. Psylocke (House of M Day After 1)
105. Quill (198 Files)
106. Random (198 Files)
107. Mikhail Rasputin (Colossus: Bloodline 3)
108. Rhapsody (198 Files)
109. Franklin Richards (Fantastic Four)
110. Valeria Richards (Fantastic Four
111. Riccochet (198 Files)
112. Rockslide (New X-Men 20)
113. Rogue (House of M Day After 1)
114. Sabra (198 Files)
115. Sabretooth (198 Files)
116. Sack (198 Files)
117. Sage (House of M Day After 1)
118. Scalphunter (198 Files)
119. Scrambler (198 Files)
120. Selene (198 Files)
121. Shatterstar (198 Files)
122. Shadowcat (House of M 8)
123. Sebastian Shaw (198 Files)
124. Shinobi Shaw (198 Files)
125. Silver Samurai (Wolverine 36)
126. Siryn (Cable/Deadpool 18)
127. Skein (198 Files)
128. Skids (All New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z 1)
129. Gregor Smerdyakov (Mutopia X 5)
130. Squirrel Girl (GLX-Mas)
131-133. Stepford Cuckoos (New X-Men 20)
134. Storm (House of M Day After 1)
135. Strong Guy (House of M Day After 1)
136. Sunspot (House of M Day After 1)
137. Surge (New X-Men 20)
138. Swordsman IV (Andreas von Strucker) (New Thunderbolts 17)
139. Tempo (198 Files)
140. Thunderbird III (198 Files)
141. Toad (198 Files)
142. Trance (198 Files)
143. Ursa Major (198 Files)
144. Vanguard (198 Files)
145. Voght (198 Files)
146. Vulcan (Deadly Genesis 1)
147. Wallflower (New X-Men 20)
148. Warpath (Cable/Deadpool 18)
149. Evangeline Whedon (Uncanny X-Men 466)
150. Whirlwind (198 Files)
151. Pete Wisdom (House of M Day After 1)
152. Wither (New X-Men 20)
153. Wolfsbane (House of M Day After 1)
154. Wolf Cub (New X-Men 21)
155. Wolverine (House of M 8)
156. X-23 (New X-Men 20)
Hey Daron what you think of this week?
Some pretty good stuff all around.
Cool I’ll sign off first and leave you the last word.
Notes:
1. Marvel.com poll Who is your favorite NEW Avenger?
2. Digital comics Comics you can read online
3. superherohype poll Should there be a fourth “X-Men” movie?
4. CBG poll About what percentage of your comics budget is spent each month on trade paperbacks?
5. Wizard Spidey poll Of the following five costume alterations, which one is your favorite Spider-look?
6. As always your opinions on anything in the article or out on the shelves is welcome. After all you never know what type of response you will get.
7. Keep those emails coming and make sure to label them Marvel Handbook.
That’s it from my end. Reporting from my corner of the Marvel Universe I’m Jim Trabold. Have a great week and see you at the comic shop.
I can’t even begin to fathom how I could follow up that bloated sign off, and that’s saying a lot for me”¦
