Fall is in full swing and the end of the year is fast approaching. Mike Campbell and Kevin Wilson return for another roundtable as we look towards the future. While there are a few current event items this time, the bulk of the load this time around is on more long-term questions for a few promotions.
1. What did you think of the Jeff Hardy heel turn and formation of Immortal, as well as their alliance with Flair’s Fortune group?
K.W.: That is a pretty loaded question, so I’ll try to go piece by piece. I like Jeff Hardy’s heel turn, I think not having him on TV a lot has made it a bigger deal and while his promos are weird at least it is something fresh. I am already getting tired of Bischoff and normally I like Bischoff, but this just reeks of nWo Bischoff and I stopped watching WCW by 1999 because I was tired of it. Hogan being unable to be on TV much has probably helped things as they would probably take up 40 minutes of airtime instead of only 20. It is an odd faction as generally they don’t work together very much and keep to their own heelish storylines. I didn’t mind Flair’s group joining as I don’t see them lasting as a group much longer. By the end I am expecting it to be 8 or so wrestlers with Hogan/Bischoff/Flair as the heads, but even that I don’t see lasting any longer then the Spring as TNA just can’t stay focused on one thing long enough. Overall I wasn’t amused, I liked Fortune the way it was and I think Hardy’s turn was the only entertaining thing out of the entire situation.
M.C.: The Jeff Hardy heel turn is one of the stupidest booking moves that TNA has ever done. Even though he’s not at the same level of popularity he was during his peak in the ‘E back in 2008-09, he’s still quite the hot property. Turning him heel has no potential upside. Either the fans shit on it and cheer him anyway or they hate him and then TNA loses tons of money in merchandise sales. Regarding the merger of Immortal and Fortune, that I’m perfectly OK with. As we’ve learned from Dragon Gate and from ROH during the height of faction warfare, too many factions isn’t a good thing.
P.C.: All I can say about the heel turn is that at least Hardy is making an attempt to get over legit as a heel. My bigger problem is with the alliance between the two main stables in TNA. I agree 100% with Mike’s end comment about factions, but there are two key things to remember in this case: these are the only two ongoing factions other than the ECW guys, and they are working together. So far they haven’t had the two on T.V. together for too long, but the fact that these two factions are on good terms is not only bad for business, it’s downright stupid. Think about it: you have a stable that is established and has been around for a good portion of the year, and you have a newly formed heel stable that is supposed to be the main heel forces in the promotion. With the already established stable having more members than this new one, the best way to make a statement with your new heel group would be to have them going into a feud with another stable outnumbered. Why outnumbered? Because it offers the benefits of a face turn for Fortune and all sorts of heel stuff for Jarrett and Hardy and Abyss to do to guys like Kazarian and A.J. and Flair without any b.s. heel stuff like The Pope’s congregation ditching him for Bischoff’s money. Not only that, but the stable war could be the promotion’s major feud easily until the all-cage PPV in April (or whenever it’ll be in 2011) all the while they can start to build up something. Then again, a guy from Jersey Shore just won the X-division title, so I guess I’m still a dreamer.
2. What NOAH/NJPW matches or interactions do you see at New Japan’s January 4 Tokyo Dome show?
K.W.: They don’t appear to be building to anything major, although Japanese promotions are funny about that sometimes and they still have two months to build up something. A GHC Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team match is a gimme if Tiger Mask/Kanemoto still have the belts then, and if they want to make it a “big deal” they could have KENTA and Marufuji team up one again to try to bring the titles back. But it will probably be something more practical. Kojima won’t be defending at the Dome against a NOAH wrestler obviously so that is out, so unless there is a “special” fresh match that is the only interaction I foresee at the moment.
M.C.: The only obvious one to me is Kanemoto/Tiger Mask defending the GHC Jr. Tag Titles against the NTV Cup winners KENTA and Aoki. I’d personally like to see Sugiura defend the GHC against Nakamura, but Kojima seems to be campaigning to defend his title against Nakamura. I’m also hoping for a nice midcard trios or atomicos match between the two feds since those seem to generate the most hatred.
P.C.: I must say that with Kojima having faced Tanahashi, Goto, and Nakamura by the time this show comes around, it really turns the main-event into a conundrum. As for NOAH/NJPW, I can see all sorts of things for both promotions to do on this show because, remember, a good number for this show helps both promotions out when the main matches are inter-promotional. With Nakamura’s title challenge coming in December, and assuming he loses, a Nakamura/Shiozaki rematch wouldn’t be too hard to make. It’s still pretty early, but I doubt that a couple of big-name tag matches would be hard to make.
3. What were your thoughts on how closely tied Linda’s campaign (and her opponent’s attacks) were to The E, and how do you think it affected the result?
K.W.: Unlike Ditch I avoid politics like the plague, so I really only know what I read on message boards and saw on wrestling TV. I don’t think her being tied to wrestling hurt her though, she was a big underdog in the first place and I was amazed she made it as far as she did. Her campaign seemed to do a good enough job of distancing herself, and her opponent’s campaign didn’t seem knowledgeable and/or interested enough to attack some of her dumber wrestling statements (such as saying that she had only met Lance Cade once). So while I don’t think it had a real upside, I think that being involved in wrestling didn’t really hurt her either since she has mostly been on the “business” side and wasn’t ever a wrestler herself.
M.C.: I don’t think Linda really ever had a chance for one simple reason. What exactly qualified her to be a senator? Her ties to the WWE were just the icing on the proverbial cake for her opponents to use against her. While I did personally disagree with the notion of disallowing voters to wear WWE shirts, I did understand the mentality behind it. Vince and co. sounding off like they did regarding probably didn’t win her many supporters.
P.C.: I did comment this on my radio show already, but I don’t really think her being involved with The E had anything to do with her losing. She was a first-time candidate and the fact that she even got the nomination was good enough to some. With that out of the way, she couldn’t have handled the criticism and attacks at the product she was once involved in any worse. I understand that steering away from issues that could hurt you is Politics 101, but this was pretty embarrassing at times—the comments after the Lance Cade death, the whole debacle with Benoit’s father, and the whole “Stand up for WWE†campaign. Other than that, I could care less as I knew she wasn’t going to win and I’m glad I’m guaranteed not to see any “McMahon in 2012†posters anywhere.
4. What are your thoughts on Mickie James going to TNA and which women’s division do you think is better right now, TNA or The E?
K.W.: Phil is bringing the hard questions this week as in general I think both women’s divisions aren’t that great right now. I guess if I had to pick one I like TNA’s women division better still as in WWE Melina isn’t entertaining as a face, I don’t like Layla, and most of the women aren’t very good wrestlers. In TNA I do like Mickie James even though I think she has lost a step, that might just be from being rusty. And maybe this makes me a bit hokey, but I also have enjoyed the stuff with Winter and Lacy is always a guilty pleasure of mine. In WWE I do like Natalie, but that is about it at the moment (I don’t watch Smackdown so I apologize if there are any awesome “divas” over there that I don’t know about) so TNA wins for me.
M.C.: I’m happy that Mickie James has a job. I’m disapointed because she’ll be yet another name to add to the list of talents being wasted in TNA. Had this happened in 2007 or 08 when the women’s division was hot, then it’d have been great. But the loss of Kong, Gail Kim, and Roxxi don’t leave many options for Mickie.
P.C.: If TNA had more women wrestlers who could wrestle this would’ve been a fantastic pick-up. And while they still have a few who really can wrestle, the feud with Tara can only last so long. After that, will TNA even do a regular feud/storyline with Mickie James and another woman wrestler who can wrestle? Likely not. As for which division is better, I’m a purist, so I’ll go with TNA’s women’s division as they have a lot more wrestling in their division, and more importantly, they don’t waste talent the way The E has with their women’s division (Beth Phoenix over the last year, Gail Kim, and Natalya still jobbing to LayCool).
5. It’s going to be Barrett/Orton again at Survivor Series, except now Cena will be the special ref with the stips being that if Orton keeps the belt then Cena is fired, but if Barrett wins the belt then Cena is no longer the Nexus’ man slave. Has The E booked themselves into a corner? Is this the end of the Cena/Nexus angle? And if it’s not the end, where and when will the end come?
K.W.: Cena turning heel in this match is certainly the big talking point, but the question is if WWE knows it is the big “what if?” will they pull the trigger now, or will it be some type of non-finish that continues the feud. WWE can never really book itself into a corner, as there is always a way out (double knockout, for example), and I wouldn’t be shocked if they used one here. If they do have a real finish, I could see Barrett winning the belt but Cena not really cooperating, and then attacking Barnett afterwards leading to Miz pinning Barnett (or Miz challenging and then Bryan messing it up for him), thus continuing the Nexus/Cena feud. So they have quite a few options here and I don’t know between Orton, Barrett, and Miz who has the best chance of coming out of the event with the title. So it should be interesting to see what direction they go in as it should be a very pivotal point in the feud.
M.C.: It certainly looks like they’re booking themselves into a corner. I don’t foresee any way for them to not put the title on Barrett at this point. Unless Barrett decides the next night that it’s not Cena’s fault and kicks Otunga to the curb. I hope it’s not the end of Cena in Nexus because I’ve been waiting for it to get really good, and I’m still waiting. If this is the end, then add it to the list of potential great angles that sputtered right out of the gate.
P.C.: If you still believe that the whole “you’re fired†threat means anything in pro wrestling, you haven’t been watching for the past ten years or so. It means nothing. Case in point: Cena could screw Barrett over and help Orton keep the title, get fired, and still be on RAW the next night because the mystery G.M. gave him his job back. This is how I see things going down except for how Cena will get his job back the night after, that’s anybody’s guess. I’m still holding my belief that the Nexus/Cena angle will end in some way at Royal Rumble in January providing a segue for Cena to whatever they give him for Mania (my guess: still Taker). It’s very plausible that Cena does the deed and Barett gets the title leading to something between Orton and Cena, but I don’t believe Orton/Cena will be either man’s match at Mania and that The E would do a feud with these two for only two months, so Orton keeps the gold.
PLUGS
Check out my little radio show. This week: More Heroes Immortales IV, Turning Point, the G-1 Tag League wraps up, and C.M. Punk gets injured in an odd way.
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Ditto for Kevin.
SEVEN MATCHES UNTIL WE MEET AGAIN
Big Van Vader Vs. Stan Hansen, NJPW, 2/10/1990
Part 2
Part 3
Yes, this is the match you’re probably thinking of. Hansen knocks Vader’s eye out of its socket very early and Vader continues at full speed! Sure he sputters a tad to make sure he still has his eye, but the match is still a really great brawl between two guys who are really good at it. Plus, there’s an amped up Tokyo Dome crowd since this was a NJPW/AJPW joint show, hence this match.
Antonio Inoki & Keiji Mutoh Vs. Riki Choshu & Tatsumi Fujinami, NJPW, 8/20/1987
Part 2
This must’ve been during one of the brief moments when Choshu & Fujinami weren’t feuding with each other. At any point that both Choshu & Fujinami were in New Japan from the early 80’s to the early 90’s, they were feuding. This would be the exception I guess as they team up (dream team at the time) against Inoki and Mutoh. This was a match that helped people see that Mutoh was the one who was going to be the future of the promotion if only because he was the young guy teaming with Inoki here.
Keiji Mutoh Vs. Masahiro Chono, NJPW, 10/5/1984
Debut match for both Mutoh and Chono. Not a big surprise with the benefit of hindsight as these two were practically stuck to each others hip during their time together in New Japan. Feuding with each other or teaming with each other, these two would be in the ring with each other for just about the entire 1990’s, and even the early 2000’s before Mutoh’s jump to All Japan.
Kazuo Yamazaki Vs. Masahito Kakihara, UWFi, 11/30/1994
Part 2
Both of these guys are ones who don’t hear a ton about when shoot-style wrestling is mentioned; that’s a shame. Yamazaki has always been one of my favorites and Kakihara’s toughness in withstanding big shots has always been underrated. This is a good example of both of these guys having a really good night. And it’s not either man’s best match either, just a taste.
TAKA Michinoku Vs. Black Tiger II (Eddie Guerrero), NJPW, 4/16/1994
Another J-Cup ’94 match with Eddie under the mask against a young TAKA. I believe Eddie had just started in ECW around this time, but in the American flag gear that he and Art Barr wore in Mexico. When he’s in Japan, he’s Black Tiger. As for TAKA, he can already go for someone who’s just starting out his career and what is produced is another fun and entertaining J-Cup match. You shouldn’t be surprised.
Harley Race Vs. Abdullah the Butcher, AJPW, 5/13/1976
One thing about Abdullah in his heyday is that he could be (and was) put in there with some of the best in the world and the matches wouldn’t suffer. This is an example as they keep it quick and Race is someone who doesn’t mind having a match catered more towards Abby’s positives.
Takeshi Morishima Vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, NOAH, 3/5/2006
This was supposed to be the changing of the guard match in NOAH. All the initial reactions to the match centered around the match being better than expected as this was, in my opinion, the best Misawa match post-2005. Also, the provides the last real glimpse of Misawa still being Misawa.
