It was a pleasure to talk to Danny Kastner. This is without question, the best interview that I have ever conducted and Kastner reveals details about himself that definitely did not come out on the show.
Murtz Jaffer: You are the second reality person that I know from Boston…
Danny Kastner: Who’s the first?
MJ: You have to know who the first is…
DK: In Boston?
MJ: The definition of Boston.
DK: I don’t know…
MJ: BOSTON ROB MARIANO!
DK: Oh wow! Where was he from?
MJ: Are you kidding? You don’t know who he is?
DK: No.
MJ: Boston Rob was the prolific Survivor who just got cast on The Amazing Race, so he’s now doing two reality shows in a row.
DK: That’s pretty crazy! I don’t watch Survivor.
MJ: I actually thought that he went beyond Survivor. I thought that he was a sacred son in Boston.
DK: Really? I don’t watch much TV and Boston is a great town but rarely the center of my personal entertainment. I am not in Boston a lot.
MJ: Are you primarily in LA?
DK: Yeah, and I am in New York as well. We digress.
MJ: Let’s get started. Can you tell me a little bit about your background, I talked to Paula earlier (who works for POPstick) and she told me the craziest story about how you met her at the auditions in Boston.
DK: Indeed. Isn’t that awesome?
MJ: I have been covering reality television for the past five years and it is the craziest story that I have ever heard.
DK: Haha. Well, that’s the kind of person that I am. I was just like going around and doing my schtick (videotaping the Apprentice wannabes in line). I met Paula in line and she was really nice. Then on the other coast, we managed to get together and now she’s working for me! What a great place to recruit – the line!
MJ: So how did it work? Did you just show up to the auditions and take a video camera with you and just go up and down the line?
DK: Exactly. It was like a little video. It was my little pocket camera. I call them Pocumentaries and I trademarked it. I just like to tell stories of people and I like to use my little camera to do them. I thought it would be fun to ask everybody why they would want to do this (try out for The Apprentice). Finally the wristband lady came up to me and asked me if I wanted a wristband and I said ‘why not?’ So that way I could stay in line.
MJ: The whole time it’s not like you were not some random who walked up there with his camera. You are a pretty accomplished individual. Was there any part of you that actually wanted to apply or did you just go there to make the tape?
DK: There’s a little part that wanted to apply, but I certainly didn’t go for that goal. Probably what helped was that my friend Heather (who works for me) that was going to apply, didn’t show up. Had she shown up, I probably would have been vicariously happy through her. She didn’t show up and that kind of left me stranded. I said that I probably should have a purpose for being here – and had to keep a place in line.
MJ: For those who aren’t familiar with you, I have heard that your company POPstick represents Dell, Microsoft, and IBM. How did you get started with this whole marketing deal?
DK: That’s a good question. I basically have always been entrepreneurial. My last internet start-up was in the music space. I started that in ’94. That was pretty far ahead of the curve and then sold out of that in ’96. After that, I wanted to do something more creative and that had more impact as far as marketing. The technology that we invented are things that I really think are forward-thinking and creative. We built communities with our POPstick Outburst solution and have a very successful marketin methodology called Matchstick. It’s a product that’s very animated and interactive. It’s a very creative type of company.
MJ: I think that a lot of people (when they first saw you on the show) said that you had to be on the street smart team because you don’t look like the guys that I went to college with. How do you answer that?
DK: Well, I mean a lot of people went to college that have style and character. I would think that naturally cool or not, you should just go with your own identity and who you are. Be comfortable with that.
MJ: What about your identity? What goes into your wardrobe choice?
DK: Well it starts with the idea that there are no limitations about the clothing and creativity that you can put into your wardrobe. I just love vintage stuff. I like to seek stuff out wherever I go. I am always looking out for vintage stores. Then I figured out that you can’t really buy head-to-toe matching leisure suits. After awhile, I just started making ’em.
MJ: Is that how you dress in the workplace?
DK: Oh yeah. Totally.
MJ: How does that go over? Do people laugh when you initially walk into a room?
DK: No, not at all. I mean, I look good in this stuff my friend.
MJ: I mean for a guy that is so proud of this vintage clothing. I mean when you wore it on the first show, I was like ‘wow, this guy really wants to make an impression.’ He wants to be known as the guy with the red suit and the guitar. But then on the second show, you went back to the clean-cut image…
DK: That was a complete joke. I was hanging out with Erin, and I told her that I had this jacket and she told me to put it on. She’s told me to put a tie on and at that point we started laughing. We asked ourselves if Trump would notice. At that point, it was just hilarious.
MJ: Would you have gone back to the original Danny style if you had lasted?
DK: I did by the third show.
MJ: I thought it was all part of your game. You started out as this struggling up and coming type guy and then you end up as like this corporate rainmaker. I thought it was all part of your plan.
DK: Right. There wasn’t a big plan man. That’s the problem. I could only put myself out there and see what happens.
MJ: I talked to Todd Everett after he got kicked off and he said that you caused a lot of distraction in the first task with Stephanie and I was just wondering what happened in that first task. You were supposed to be this big marketing guy and you came up with the Triple Play idea. I was just wondering if there was anything that we didn’t see.
DK: Yeah. The first thing we came up with was ‘just say cheese,’ and there was some really good reason as to why we could not use that – ie trademark. You have to be tied to the brand of the company. We were in a completely different location so Todd really didn’t see what we were going through to get all that stuff happening. I think he felt that was a distraction because I couldn’t really give him a straight answer like ‘oh, we just sat down with Russ from Burger King and Russ said here you go, we like this idea.’ It was more of a back and forth process with him saying ‘let me get back with you guys and see if Legal will approve that.’ There’s a lot of process to get the stuff approved. Then of course, Todd and I don’t know this in the first episode but there are all these strict rules. After awhile you kind of realize that the strict process is just a guideline, and you don’t have to get all tight about it. But not in the first task.
MJ: He said that you guys still ended up drawing more money than the Street Smart team, but it came back to the fact that you guys didn’t see as many burgers. Do you think that your marketing skills worked because you did end up being more successful, just not at the product that you were trying to sell?
DK: Yeah. Absolutely. I actually forgot that part. We way outsold the other store. We were trying to get the message across to buy that burger and most people got the message and did.
MJ: It just seemed to me that (while watching the show) you were standing outside and just throwing balls into this like pit and it was like where is the plan in that?
DK: Well, whatever. I mean I could tell you the plan right now, but I don’t really care my friend. Haha. I think it’s funnier the way that they cut it. And I can live up to that to. I am not going to be like *puts on whiny voice* ‘well, let me tell you how it really happened…’ I think it is hilarious. Live and let live. I don’t give a f***! I think it’s hilarious. God bless them for coming up with a good storyline that is as funny as that! You know what I mean?
MJ: Totally.
DK: Then I will see you in the real boardroom at IBM as I am brainstorming the next genius marketing scheme that I came up with! You know what I mean? *jokingly* I am the best there is, and the best there ever was!
*At this point, Danny breaks out his guitar and starts busting out into song*
I am the best there ever was, don’t piss off Burger King. Burger King. Burger King!!!!
MJ: Were you quoting a little Bret Hart over there?
DK: That was my cell phone my friend. You better not print those expletives or I’ll f****** come over there…
MJ: Oh you don’t want them in? Half the people want them in.
DK: Do they really? I am a little more couth than that.
MJ: Oh, that would have made such a good interview if I could leave them in. But yeah, I won’t put them in if you don’t want them.
DK: Well dude, I don’t really know the style of your website.
MJ: Well, have you ever been to the site?
DK: I have, but I didn’t delve through it.
MJ: You know how we have all the former Apprentices right?
DK: Yeah, yeah.
MJ: Well, you got a lot of attention. They were all like ‘Danny, Danny, Danny…’ You were the one that has gotten the most attention in the last two years. I kind of find that you are the guy that everybody loves to hate.
DK: I guess. I think you’re absolutely wrong. I am the guy that everybody loves to love. All you gotta do is walk down the street and be me in New York City and it’s not like I am some wacky celebrity. I am just somebody that everybody approaches. Oh, you’re Danny. Let’s get a photo. I saw you on the show. You were so great. I should set up a camera the next time I am down there, and just show the world what it is like to be me. See, because you’re an internet guy and internet people are bored. Their bosses are morons for letting them spend half their workday on the internet. They should get something more productive to do with their lives. The only way to make it interesting is to spend time in chatrooms coming up with the negatives, whereas those that are positive in the world are busy and productive and don’t have time to delve there. You know what I mean?
MJ: Oh, so you’re insulting my industry now… (laughs)
DK: No. I am not insulting your industry at all, because it is my industry as well.
MJ: So you are saying that you are in an industry that is primarily negative but that you are a positive person?
DK: A lot of people think that (and your impression included) because someone spends the time to go and dis somebody that that’s the real deal. Let me tell you something. I was on Mancow this morning or whatever that moron’s name is and he says that he’s funny and his show is interactive or whatever. I just got done doing four or five great radio programs. Then there’s this guy. His whole schtick is just to be a jerk.
MJ: Is that what he was to you on the phone?
DK: Yeah, basically he just wanted to cut me down and go after me. And I just think that it is funny. Meanwhile, if he just sat and thought about it for two seconds before he went to cut me down and see if I am nice or interesting and what’s funny about me. And I had other shows where we were laughing and having a great time and unfortunately he just inserted this seething negativity in there that is what his audience apparently wants to hear. So that is the thread of what the average joe says.
MJ: Yeah, but you are totally typecasting now. A lot of the people on the internet really like you.
DK: Yeah I know that, but your whole question was that people love to hate you. Those were your words.
MJ: I did say that, yes.
DK: I am just completely defending that. That’s all.
MJ: Yeah, but I am not saying that as a bad thing. I am saying that you’re the Richard Hatch. Everybody saw you with your guitar. You’re the one that people remember. So when they built up as this hardcore IBM/Microsoft marketer and then you didn’t come through in two marketing tasks… you are the guy that everybody loves to hate.
DK: Well, we came through in that Nescafe task as well. That’s the truth. We did a great job. I had 80 people on the street and there was a huge buzz. All I remember is that the Nescafe guy asked me if we were doing anything else for the coffee. I was like yeah. I told him we had the regular and the decaf, but I still knew something was up when he asked me that. Come to find out that the other group did the cold coffee idea. That wasn’t marketing. That was product development man. Frankly, it was a brilliant idea and I sure as hell didn’t think of it. I don’t ever walk into one of my customers and tell them how to make their product. That’s a risk if you ask me.
MJ: They didn’t give the cold coffee to promote?
DK: No. The other team invented that idea. They just ordered ice cream and put coffee sprinkles on it or something like that. To me that was a brand risk. I would never do that with one of my customers unless it was explicitly there but the execs on the task loved it and I can see why they loved it. We got beat fair and square and it’s not because our marketing wasn’t great. The fact is that I did all our marketing and a couple of people on our team just sat there and did nothing. It was unbelievable.
MJ: I think I found a lot more of that on the book smart team, with people just sitting around doing jack. The thing is that you got along with Verna and she is somebody that many people feel didn’t do anything.
DK: That’s not true. Verna did a good job on both tasks. She worked hard.
MJ: Tell me about that. On the one hand you are telling me that a lot of people didn’t do stuff and then somebody like Verna you are defending. Is it just that we didn’t see who worked hard and who didn’t?
DK: Yeah, definitely. In my episode there was somebody that was just terrible at the marketing job and so I was doing that person’s job. Just think of who didn’t seem to be doing much and you can probably guess (aside from Michael).
MJ: Oh, because Michael was my guess.
DK: No. The actual job itself. It’s BS because you get to a point where people say that they have already done their job and now the project manager is going down because I already did my job. Screw that. If I had not taken this project manager job this early or if we had won, I would have coasted super far. I was a great lieutenant.
MJ: I just think that the real people step up at the beginning because a lot of people are afraid to step up and be one of the first four fired. Is that what happened? Did you step up because no one else would?
DK: In the second task, I had a little hotel experience when I was in college and they asked me if I wanted it and I said no. I knew I was practically burned at the stake. But darn, I should have because we won that task.
MJ: And even Todd said that when you initially got there to the suite, you were the one that grabbed the dossier first. Nobody can say that you were bored by the experience. I think you were the one that was the most into it. Would you agree?
DK: Oh yeah man. I was loving it. This was so cool. What a great opportunity to do these tasks and be challenged like this. It was amazing. I’d love to do more of it.
MJ: The question that a lot of people asked me to ask you was what was up with the ‘unbelievable’ cheer?
DK: It was partly to intimidate the other group, to get them pissed off.
MJ: So you did it in front of them too? Where is it from? Did you get it from somewhere or did you make it up?
DK: We did it front of them. I just made it up on the spot. UNBELIEVABLE! Now I say it all the time. I kind of remembered my unbelievable schtick on the show, but not to that extent. You need that. It’s so hard with this type of situation. The irony is that those that stick out and put their neck out (like myself) and others will end up fired. Todd included, he could have gotten really far. Those that do stick their neck out, get whacked and aren’t the ones that go to the end.
MJ: The ones that go to the end are passive-aggressive. They lie low.
DK: They make Kelly (Apprentice 2 Winner) sound like he was some brilliant dude with a plan and was this military guy that worked all the way to the end. Come on. That’s a crock. He just lied low. I didn’t watch all the shows, but did you really feel like that guy (even though he had won a lot of tasks) had stuck his neck out when he started to rise at the end? Did you really have that impression?
MJ: Not at all. The thing was that they really screwed up the editing on the last one because they made it seem like it was the Andy & Raj show and so when those two got kicked off… there was a feeling of deflation.
DK: They should have just probably kept Andy all the way to the end to become the Apprentice.
MJ: Yeah, they should have. To this day, I don’t understand why they built him up to such a point. They should have knocked him off early if he didn’t have a chance because of his age.
DK: I don’t know. See they don’t just “knock people off.” Put this in your dictionary. It’s the Danny rule. The fact is (and all my friends said this) that I was going to stay around for awhile, since you’re interesting and you’re good TV or whatever you want to call it. Just being who I am is who I am. If that is good TV, then it is good TV. The fact is that the producers don’t care. What Trump does in there and what happens, happens. They are not planning at all. I don’t know if they do in other reality shows, maybe they conspire a little more. I am telling you that whatever really goes down there has nothing to do with the longevity of the plan. I think that Trump plays the game fair and square.
MJ: Do you think then, that they saw you. I know I keep going back to it, but I think that it is pretty defining, but they saw this interesting guy in the red suit. This guy with a guitar. This guy that walks in for the good time. Do you think that you were typecast? Did they know what they were going to get out of you as soon as you walked in?
DK: Let me tell you something. I honestly believe this. I honestly believe that the producers thought I would go very far. They knew that I was brilliant. I am just not saying it. If you knew anybody that was in a business environment with me, and had to go up against the best of the best and to come up with a solution, I am just great at that. That’s the premise that the friends told me about why I should be on the show. Not because I am funny or interesting or whatever. That kind of thing is what I am very good at.
MJ: Since the show ended, all I have heard about is how brilliant Danny is and how we didn’t see what Danny can really do and how successful he is with the whole IBM and all this marketing stuff. Did you try and keep that under wraps or was it the producers?
DK: I am a very unassuming person, you know what I mean? In some ways, I am only saying that now because now I feel like I almost have to defend myself. In reality, you show up in your leisure suit. You go to a meeting and you sit there and you listen for a little bit. Then you start to throw out conversation and discourse that makes them ask ‘who is this guy?’ Or I get up there and do a presentation that really gets people jazzed. They’re thinking right here, and I am thinking two years ahead of them. I am letting them know where they should be going forward with their company’s marketing. For example, I invented the technology that’s streaming music into online advertising. We’re doing deals right now with all of the biggest music publishers. This technology is just great. I trademarked the word ‘pocumentary’ and that’s going to be a big thing one day where people have these pocket videos because videos is the next thing coming out of your camera, not these stupid photos. I am going to make that a big brand, partnering with a big camera company and I could go on and on. That’s the kind of person I really am. That doesn’t necessarily mold to the task where you need to do stuff in two to three hours.
MJ: Out of all of the interviews that I have done, this is the most fascinating conversation because I feel that the guy that I am talking to now is not the guy that I saw on the show. If you had told me that Danny was this hardcore internet-hating dude, I wouldn’t have believed you.
DK: Well, no dude, I don’t hate the internet. Don’t give me the wrong impression. Please don’t at all. I love the internet! I am just saying that there is a dichotomy with the internet. It’s everybody’s little voicebox. Let’s go back to that. I am not dissing the internet. I am dissing people in general that want to dwell on negativity or the unusual. Their first commentary is that they want to react to something, at least if they want to comment on it. In their blog or on some message board or something. They think that it is going to get more attention if they just throw out something negative. You don’t get any attention for being nice. Get out of the internet and get into the real world when you’re walking down the street and you help out some old lady or some stereotypical thing. The truth of that is that if you are mean on the street, you’re not going to get any attention for that.
MJ: This is so fascinating because it’s true. Everything you read is negative, negative, negative. You could have five sites and if four out of the five are positive and one is negative, which one are you going to go home and talk about?
DK: Right, exactly. Going back to the other thing that I said. You should be Danny in New York City and walk down the street and realize that the reaction is just hilarious, positive, and fun.
MJ: Okay, well let me take that one step further. You’re Danny, you’re walking in New York. People like you, people think that you are fun. People shake your hand. What are the chances that the guy that shook your hand is the same guy that goes home and does that (is negative on internet message boards)? It has to be a possibility.
DK: I would say that the chances are the exact odds that are in truth to reality. I think it’s a very small percentage. I could be eating a hamburger at a restaurant and a tomato falls into my lap. Just accidentally. The one time that it happens in five years, just like it does to everybody. Then the guy at the restaurant is going to go home and is going to say… ‘you know I did see Danny. He is such a goofball, I can’t believe he dropped a tomato on his lap. What a moron!’ That’s the guy that was ready to do that anyway. One of these reality sites really cracks me up because there was this ex-employee that was being a real jerk about me. Sometimes past employees will try and screw around with the non-compete agreement and we have to enforce it. Then they hate POPstick. I imagine that this is the case which creates a bitter, yet jaded, individual. So then this guy goes out and puts all this stupid stuff on one of these message boards. It’s just all this wacky bogus story-telling.
In an effort to remain impartial, Danny has commented on this issue further on the Inside Pulse Message Boards, which can be accessed here
MJ: The problem with internet interviews is that people will put what you say in a certain context. That’s why I post the exact transcript.
DK: Exactly, I am talking to you because there is legitimacy to what you do.
MJ: Who were your best friends from the show?
DK: Erin and Bren.
MJ: Here’s a good question. I want a straight answer. Who is the person that you liked the most, liked the least, would fire next and would ultimately hire?
DK: I’d hire Bren to be my Apprentice. I like Erin the most. I like Stephanie the least. I’d fire Michael next.
MJ: You know what’s funny? I liked Michael the most on the show. He’s my favorite.
DK: Really?
MJ: Yeah, because they really gave him strong editing on that second show with the motels. He came off like a champion.
DK: Oh my god, he was a nightmare dude. If you want to know the truth, go online and watch the little Yahoo clip. Bren and I are doing our little road trip and we were like ‘Michael’s going to lose so bad!’
MJ: He was my first pick to win…
DK: He’s a good guy and he’s very talented. I can’t make any predictions there. I’d still fire him next just off of observation.
MJ: Do you still keep in touch with him?
DK: He’s a great guy. I love him. He’s a big teddy bear.
MJ: Really? So it was just on the show…
DK: Yeah.
MJ: So what’s next for Danny?
DK: Let’s see. A lot of things. I am one of those Renaissance guys. I have my great business Popstick and it has been very successful and I am doing a webinar with in half an hour with about 40 people. I have my band neo-nerds. You can get all the details at Kastner.com. I am just a guy that is completely out there. I have been working on this documentary about record stores. I do a lot with music and writing. I also have my own leisure suit line called neo-nerd.
MJ: Well, I gotta tell you that out of all the millions of interviews that I have conducted, you are the one who has shocked me the most. You are not what I expected at all. I literally had to throw my questions out the window.
DK: THAT’S AWESOME DUDE!
MJ: The image that I had of you before we talked was that you were this introverted guy that was really good at business and when he got on the Apprentice he would be extroverted for the first time in his life.
DK: Wow.
MJ: Instead, you’re this like balls-out, no bull-shit guy. It’s just weird.
DK: I appreciate your reaction. My friends just think it is funny because they already know what I am like.
MJ: I am an expert in reality television and I can tell you that you did not come off this way at all on the show.
DK: You’re going to print that right?
MJ: Definitely.
Danny Kastner sings Vegetable Porn (parody of Apprentice Episode 4.)
