My centennial of sorts
For the 100th installment of The Reality of Wrestling, I figured I’d share the moment with two of my biggest proponents during these first 100, Kevin Wilson & David Ditch, as well as go back to something I tried out last summer and will likely repeat: the roundtable. Of course, my roundtable is different in that I try to load up mine with as much variety as possible in terms of who, what, and where.
1. The Japanese MMA promotion DEEP announced that it would begin holding shoot-style wrestling matches on its MMA cards in the future. Participants for future worked shoot-style matches include Minoru Suzuki and Ikuhisa Minowa. Should shoot-style wrestling and shoot fighting be mixed?
K.W.: I don’t mind it being mixed, but only if it is clearly stated which matches are shoot and which ones are not, which isn’t always easy. Ideally, if a promotion wants to both, it should have it as two separate shows (even if its the same day) as if someone in the crowd is confused they might think a legitimate shoot fighter is really just a pro wrestler. Many older shoot/shoot-style promotions (such as RINGS and Pancrease) still confuse some people to this day. So it probably shouldn’t, but if done correctly I don’t see any harm with it, Sayama mixes Seikendo and Pro Wrestling, but it’s a delicate process that would have to be done well to be successful.
D.D.: This sort of thing could never happen in the US but in Japan it’s tolerable. Japanese MMA has its roots in shoot-style wrestling, and fans will accept a worked match as long as it’s credible. I wouldn’t advise it for major promotions at big venues but DEEP is small enough that it could use the help of guys like Suzuki.
P.C.: Since Minowa has always claimed pro wrestling as his style in MMA, I’m glad to finally see him in a pro wrestling match or two. I agree with Kevin in that this has to be done well to be successful, but Ditch did point out that MiSu and Minowa are two guys who would be up to the task. I would say that goes double for Suzuki because he will tone down the dickness in the ring when it’s a shootstyle or grappling match (see such matches with Iizuka and Nishimura) and that usually creates a better match in the process. Mixing pro wrestling with MMA is a lot harder to do than vice versa because it’s easier to attract pro wrestling fans to MMA. Still, I wish DEEP the best of luck.
2. Lisa Marie Varon (Victoria) made it official that she intends to enter MMA sometime in the near future. With Brock Lesnar, then Bobby Lashley, and now Victoria, is the new fad in pro wrestling going to be to enter MMA?
K.W.: No, I don’t think so. One thing in common with wrestlers that go into MMA are most either were wrestlers in college or had family in the MMA business. You won’t see people trained just in pro wrestling (such as HHH, Cena, Orton, Edge, etc.) going in MMA, only those with legitimate backgrounds. It also requires a certain… clean… natural physical ability to succeed in MMA, which is another area that pro wrestlers would struggle in. I can’t think of any current wrestlers that would have any success whatsoever in MMA as they have had trouble attracting pure wrestlers (I can’t see Shelton Benjamin in MMA), so there will be a lull before any more switch to legitimate fighting.
D.D.: In general I’d say “no”. In the US the vast majority of pro wrestlers don’t have a background that would work well with MMA. Lesnar, and Lashley have plenty of amateur experience. Victoria’s amateur credentials might not be enough if she were a man, but they’re plenty for her to give the women’s ranks a try. Japan is a different matter, but there too I’d say no as far as traditional wrestlers doing MMA.
P.C.: I’m going to go with no as well. While style and pedigree are two important elements to why going to MMA won’t be a career choice for pro wrestlers, in the end it really all comes down to money. If you’re not in UFC or in Japan, you’re likely not making any real money as even Strikeforce doesn’t pay as much as UFC. On the flipside, The E will pay you better than any wrestling promotion on the planet (especially if you’re good or what they’re looking for). Add in the bonus that even if you don’t stay in The E for long, that fact alone will get you work in the wrestling business just about anywhere on the planet.
3. UFC 93 appears to have done around 320,000 buys dispite being aired live in the afternoon and then taped at night due to it being in Ireland; those numbers may beat The E’s numbers for Royal Rumble. How worried should The E be about UFC’s ability to consistantly get buy numbers above 250,000?
K.W.: I still don’t think they should be concerned, yet. First of all, its possible to like both MMA and wrestling, fans don’t have to choose. Also, WWE still stomps UFC on TV, and while WWE doesn’t make the advertising money they do make money with the multiple times a week live gate, merchandise, etc. WWE’s current business model is to have lots of PPVs that all get moderate buys, which must work better then having 7 PPVs that get great buyrates, otherwise they wouldn’t have changed models in the first place. However, if it ever gets to the point that UFC’s ratings raise to WWE’s level, that will be different as that would allow them to get a better TV deal, then WWE better watch out.
D.D.: UFC had a gigantic 2008, and so did WWE. It seems fairly clear to me that WWE isn’t effected by UFC even a fraction as much as they are by the economy. If UFC was competing for the exact same dollars as WWE, then WWE would have been struggling in early 2008 rather than just the last quarter. UFC’s audience is more in line with that of boxing, and boxing isn’t seen as a significant factor for wrestling.
P.C.: I do believe that Vince is 100% honest when he says he doesn’t see UFC or MMA as competition. I can confirm that when he also added in a recent interview that what UFC is really cutting into is the profits of boxing; see, he gets it. As long as Wrestlemania and Summerslam don’t bomb, Vince could care less about the other ten months as far as PPV buys goes. Looking at how the monthly PPV’s have gone down in buy numbers over the years and the fact that The E still profits overall should be a clear indication as to how much Vince cares about Liddell/Ortiz II breaking the million barrier. Between merchandise, the never ending video library for DVD’s, and house show numbers being out of the fail/safe zone of emptiness, Vince doesn’t need every show to do 250,000 or 300,000 buys the same way UFC does.
4. Mistico is the most famous of the wrestlers from CMLL that have participated in New Japan Pro Wrestling so far this year. With the fans taking to Mistico right out of the gate and New Japan having sent big name wrestlers like Nakamaura, Tanahashi, and Hirooki Goto to Mexico in the last few years, is a Japan/Mexico talent exchange along the lines of the early 80’s in the works between New Japan and CMLL?
K.W.: No, it won’t grow to that extent. Over the years occasionally Luchadors show up in Japan, and are generally well received. Dr Wagner Jr. was the man in New Japan eight years ago, but he didn’t stick around for too long. If I were to guess, I would say that its too hard to get the schedules with CMLL and New Japan to line up for frequent visits. CMLL runs a lot of shows, as does New Japan, and CMLL doesn’t want to consistently be without their biggest star. But it will be fun while it lasts.
D.D.: I highly doubt it. We didn’t see that sort of impact in the ’90s when New Japan had more cash and Mexico had a deeper talent pool. Unless Mistico has a well-received match with a Japanese opponent he won’t have any more impact than Rey Mysterio Jr did.
P.C.: I also don’t believe it’ll reach that level, but that doesn’t mean New Japan and CMLL couldn’t give it a go. The junior wrestlers of that past era were innovators because they were the first to get that kind of platform to excel in the public eye. Every junior in either promotion owes a little to the stars of that time period. To put it bluntly, today’s juniors can’t match those juniors in the ring. Should a much larger talent exchange take place, the matches wouldn’t live up to those past ones, but they would likely still be entertaining if not have a few classics if Mistico can find his groove in Japan or New Japan talent makes another big splash in Mexico. The fact that this talent exchange wouldn’t match a much more famous one doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done; the fans would love it, the shows would be better because of it, and the promotions involved would see their overall product rise in quality, something the business always appreciates.
5. The TNA/New Japan feud was revived to add flavor to the Tokyo Dome card and other big cards including the 2/15 Sumo Hall show. However, the numbers and crowd heat would indicate that they’re not the matches people are coming to see. How effective do you think the TNA/NJPW feud has been and how effective do you think it will be considering there will likely be more TNA participation than just Angle in April and New Japan’s big Fukouka show in May?
K.W.: I have been pretty vocal against the TNA/New Japan feud as it has done little help for New Japan thus far. As I pointed out in the last article, TNA is 6-0 thus far in New Japan, which is unacceptable for the most successful promotion in Japan. To his credit, Angle does seem to be the one TNA wrestler that the fans enjoy watching and might draw in fans, but the rest don’t enhance the show and set New Japan back a bit as their wrestlers lose to wrestlers that won’t give anything back. In my ideal world, Team 3D will drop the titles in May, Angle will lose, and we will take a break from TNA invading New Japan.
D.D.: Japanese fans care about wrestlers willing to do more than just one big show at a time every so often. Legends like Hansen and Abdullah and Brody would do full tours. Vader did tours early in his career and got established enough that he could draw in the ’90s wrestling there sporadically. The TNA guys, like Brock Lesnar before them, just aren’t established enough to draw. Someone like Kurt Angle could absolutely be a draw if he wrestled in Japan ten to twenty times more often than he does. Since that isn’t in the cards, TNA will remain a very marginal play for New Japan.
P.C.:The fact that there’s an IWGP vs. TNA tag title cage match April 19 for Lockdown should cement the fact that a TNA team will be defending the IWGP tag belts at the Fukouka show in May. Sabin & Shelley may not have the junior tag belts by the time this is posted, and I really don’t think that Angle is winning the IWGP title Wrestlemania Sunday. Overall, neither side has benefited a great deal from the talent exchange this year as the matches involving only Japan talent were the major draws for both the Tokyo Dome and Sumo Hall shows (with the exception of Angle/Bernard for Sumo Hall) and in Orlando No Limit and Raijin (known as Kiyoshi) have performed well, but aren’t treated any differently than any other time New Japan talent has come over. I say end it when both sets of tag belts come back to New Japan as both sides would’ve gotten the most out of the feud that way.
6. Yoshihiro Takayama won All Japan’s Triple Crown titles from The Great MUTA at the promotion’s Sumo Hall show March 14. The win jumpstarted the heel stable GURENTAI composed of Takayama, Minoru Suzuki, Taiyo Kea, NOSAWA, MAZADA, and (I believe) TAKEMURA. Where do you see the Triple Crown (as a title) going from here? Where do you see All Japan going from here?
K.W.: As long as he stays healthy, Takayama will have a nice little run. He is a convincing badass who really could beat anyone in the promotion, and since he hasn’t had singles matches with any of the All Japan elite in a long time (if ever) there is no need to rush it. Outside of Suwama, the young stars of All Japan are still a few years away from taking over the main event, so anytime they have a credible outsider with the belt they need to run through some defenses before taking the title off of them. We saw this with Kensuke Sasaki and Minoru Suzuki, and I think we will see it again with Takayama. As far as GURENTAI as a whole, I’d be surprised if they stayed together as a unit even through the fall as I see Kea breaking away (maybe at Sumo Hall to try to take the Triple Crown) and becoming a face again.
D.D.: The Triple Crown depends entirely on what they do with the Champions Carnival. Takayama winning would be somewhat unprecedented, and I honestly don’t see it happening. If he doesn’t win, that would mean he loses at least once (to the winner) or multiple times (if he doesn’t even reach the finals). Anyone who beats Takayama becomes a challenger. I doubt they’ll go for Mutoh, coming right off the Muta reign. Suwama only just lost the title so it would be a bit soon to push him again. My money is on Kojima, because Takayama vs Kojima is a fresh matchup. I love Takayama but I don’t think he’s physically capable of having a long reign, so my heart is saying he’ll drop the title in his first or at most second defense.
P.C.: I agree both with the fact that All Japan’s younger guys aren’t quite ready for the main-event yet and that a credible outsider should get a long title reign. However, those things don’t mesh here. Takayama is still a credible outsider only in the sense that his name means something still. He’ll never be the same in the ring again and knows that (hence most of his appearances in recent time being tags), but still is enthusiastic and that will likely save his title run from being a flop as I believe it will make it past the first title defense. I believe Kojima/Takayama for the belts at Sumo Hall would be All Japan’s best bet for later in the year (Kojima is my pick in the CC tourney for the second year in a row by the way). The GURENTAI stable is full of entertaining personalities and talent as far as what they do (Kea & Suzuki-tag wrestling, NOSAWA & MAZADA-hardcore and comedy wrestling, Takayama-power matches) and I don’t think it should be short term as a down the road Kojima/Kea showdown with Kea as a heel could be just as effective if not more effective than Kea making a run for the belts as a face—maybe that’s been his whole problem all along as his title challenge against Kawada in ’04 got some great heat when Kea held the belts hostage as a set-up angle. Overall, I think Takayama should get at least two or three defenses in, but I do see him losing them at Sumo Hall somewhere down the road.
7. Dragon Gate just ran their first Sumo Hall show in the promotion’s history. Despite little outsider help, the card seemed to come off well and the attendance (while not the claimed sell-out) was probably good considering their big event attendances in recent years. How do you see other small promotions (like DDT) running Sumo Hall this year? What does the future hold for Dragon Gate and is another Sumo Hall show out of the question?
K.W.: As far as DDT and other small promotions are concerned, it all depends on the price to run Sumo Hall and if they can run it without losing too much money. I am not sure what attendance figure would be needed to make it an option (no one does), but it wouldn’t make sense for a small indy to run such a large arena unless they have help from one of the larger promotions. I hope DDT has a trick up its sleeve or a money mark to pay for it. I can, however, see Dragon Gate running it again as they didn’t have a lot of outsider help and still drew a healthy crowd. I think it would be a bad idea to run a show there too often, but once a year I don’t think is unrealistic, as long as they can get 6,000 or more paid it should be enough as even if they don’t make a lot of money the extra exposure certainly can’t hurt.
D.D.: The difference between Dragon Gate and DDT is like the difference between TNA and ROH. Both are established, both have TV and PPV deals, but one can reasonably run an arena show and the other can’t. Dragon Gate even at its worst sold 3000-4000 tickets to a ‘full effort’ show, wheras DDT often fails to sell out Korakuen Hall (1800-2000 seats) for ‘big’ shows. To a certain extent DDT owner Sanshiro Takagi has earned the benefit of the doubt, but it’s still hard to imagine a way for DDT to sell even 5000 tickets. Will plugging bigger stars into the DDT format lead to dramatically higher attendance? We’ll have to see. As far as Dragon Gate goes, if their claimed attendance number is even close to accurate they’ve significantly boosted their stature, possibly overtaking NOAH as the #2 promotion in Japan. It helps that their target demographic (feminine) isn’t very influenced by competition from other promotions or MMA. They’re doing better numbers than NOAH outside Tokyo, and if they can keep using Sumo Hall with success they could be on par with NOAH in Tokyo a few months from now. DG returning to Sumo Hall seems like a sure thing, even if it only happens once a year. I can’t for the life of me figure out why they’ve gotten hot with the same formula as the last several years (and with CIMA injured no less), but if it works it works.
P.C.: For the life of me I can’t figure out how DDT is going to pull off even a noteworthy paid attendance for their Sumo Hall show; strong outsider support will be needed. Dragon Gate, on the other hand, has a product and the people that are over enough with fans that they were able to reach Sumo Hall through the gradual process of running almost every major arena below 10,000 capacity and doing well in them all, so a Sumo Hall show was inevitable. The fact that they did 9,500 paid means that there will be a Sumo Hall show next year for Dragon Gate and possibly one more this year; anything more than that would be pushing it as whether or not that was a fluke is still to be determined. Still, the fact that Dragon Gate’s first Sumo Hall show did a better paid attendance than all but one New Japan show ran in the arena over the last three years is quite the interesting reality.
The Reality is…it’s been an interesting first 100. I’m aware that at times—including rather egregiously lately—I haven’t been able to keep the weekly or even every other week rate and for that I’m actually very sorry. However, I’m not sorry about the fact that through these first 100 I’ve dealt with topics from every major promotion in the U.S. and Japan as well as collaborating several times with several different writers I had the fortune of being able to work with; I hope to continue working with them, but that probably goes without saying. I am looking forward to continuing this column and will work harder to maintain a weekly output. Considering the upswing the business is experiencing worldwide, I don’t think that’ll be too hard.
PLUGS
For Puro matches, reviews, and info: Kevin’s site.
For even more Puro matches: Ditch’s site.
For MMA news and info: MMA Weekly.
For even more MMA news and info: Sherdog.
For CMLL introduction info: CMLL’s Wikipedia page.
For Dragon Gate introduction info: Dragon Gate’s U.S. page.
This Week’s “FUCK YOU!†goes to
THE EDGE/BIG SHOW/VICKIE GUERRERO LOVE TRIANGLE
With Wrestlemania this Sunday I did think this would be a good opportunity to give me pre-show thoughts and this year, it’s not that good. Austin and Mickey Rourke backing out for their own reasons ending up screwing Jericho, but the undercard doesn’t look that bad with Mysterio/JBL potentially being quite the sight and the Hardyz could steal the show, but that honor will likely go to Taker/HBK. Money in the Bank always has something to get at least entertained by, but once you get to the two title matches, specifically the Edge/Big Show/Cena WWE title match, that’s when things start to get hairy. While HHH/Orton was a bad idea simply because it’s been done and isn’t fitting of the 25th anniversary Mania, the triple threat is the best example of what has plagued this year’s show: poor build. While HBK is once again at the center of the best built up match for Mania, it should be noted that the rest of the undercard has not gotten proper build as the storylines have been lackluster and some matches put together for the sake of getting people on the card; in other words Vince’s paranoia has come back to bite him a bit this year. Did we have to have Cena “declaring his love†for Vickie as a cliffhanger to his involvement in the match? I don’t think we did, but apparently I’m wrong. Did we need to have weeks of Show and Edge fighting over Vickie while Cena reads a mock bedtime story about the three of them? I don’t think we did and there were certainly better ways to hype this match. Cena and Edge could’ve relived their past history with Big Show being the big dominating individual that people are supposed to think he is. Hello, a few weeks of Edge and Cena at each other’s throats looking for a fight, and Show coming down and stomping them both, there was that so hard? Sports entertainment is what The E is, don’t misunderstand that, but when it comes to Wrestlemania, that’s when a few months of serious build without the sports entertainment influx has paid HUGE dividends for the past decade with the lone exception being 2003, a Wrestlemania that was plagued with the same shitty build as this one. Go figure this year’s Mania may have the same result financially as that one.
